500 Concise Elements of the Project 2025

The Project 2025 proposals outline a sweeping conservative agenda to reduce federal power, promote traditional values, and prioritize state control. Critics argue these changes risk destabilizing systems, marginalizing diverse groups, and eroding federal protections for equity and civil rights. The focus on traditional family and community structures, combined with the centralization of ideological power, has drawn comparisons to authoritarian frameworks, raising concerns about parallels to fascist tendencies in undermining pluralism and democratic norms.

  1. Restructuring the Federal Workforce: Reclassifying tens of thousands of federal civil service positions as political appointees to facilitate the replacement of existing personnel with individuals aligned with conservative ideologies.
  2. Abolishing the Department of Education: Eliminating the Department of Education and transferring its functions to other agencies or state governments, effectively decentralizing federal oversight of education.
  3. Dismantling the Department of Homeland Security (DHS): Proposing the dissolution of DHS, with its responsibilities redistributed among other federal entities, aiming to streamline national security operations.
  4. Restricting Abortion Access: Implementing federal measures to limit abortion access, including reversing the FDA’s approval of mifepristone and enforcing the Comstock Act to prohibit the mailing of abortion-related materials.
  5. Rolling Back LGBTQ+ Protections: Reversing policies that allow transgender individuals to serve in the military and eliminating federal support for LGBTQ+ rights initiatives.
  6. Eliminating Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) Programs: Abolishing DEI initiatives across federal agencies, arguing that such programs promote division rather than unity.
  7. Privatizing Government Functions: Proposing the privatization of certain government services, such as the National Weather Service and the Transportation Security Administration (TSA), to reduce federal expenditures.
  8. Reducing Environmental Regulations: Rolling back regulations aimed at combating climate change, including dismantling the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) and promoting fossil fuel industries.
  9. Implementing a Flat Tax System: Replacing the current progressive tax system with a two-rate individual tax system of 15% and 30%, eliminating most deductions and credits.
  10. Restricting Immigration: Enforcing stricter immigration policies, including mass deportations and limiting legal immigration pathways, to enhance national security.
  11. Reversing Climate Policies: Undoing initiatives like the Inflation Reduction Act and reducing support for clean energy projects, favoring traditional energy sources.
  12. Enhancing Executive Power: Expanding presidential authority to allow for more direct control over federal agencies and personnel decisions.
  13. Limiting Judicial Independence: Proposing reforms that would increase executive influence over the judiciary, potentially undermining the separation of powers.
  14. Reducing Social Security and Medicare: Implementing cuts to entitlement programs to address federal budget concerns, potentially impacting millions of beneficiaries.
  15. Promoting Traditional Family Structures: Advocating for policies that support heterosexual marriage and traditional family units, potentially at the expense of recognizing diverse family structures.
  16. Restricting Voting Rights: Implementing measures that could make it more difficult for certain populations to vote, under the guise of preventing voter fraud.
  17. Limiting Free Speech Protections: Proposing changes to Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which could affect online speech and platform liabilities.
  18. Reducing Foreign Aid: Cutting funding for international programs, including those related to reproductive health and human rights, to prioritize domestic spending.
  19. Enhancing Surveillance Measures: Expanding government surveillance capabilities in the name of national security, potentially infringing on civil liberties.
  20. Restricting Press Freedoms: Implementing policies that could limit media access and freedom, under the justification of preventing misinformation.
  21. Centralizing Intelligence Functions: Restructuring intelligence agencies to increase presidential control, which some argue could reduce checks and balances on intelligence activities.
  22. Limiting Access to Public Health Programs: Cutting funding for public health initiatives like Planned Parenthood and other family planning services, citing conservative social values.
  23. Expanding Second Amendment Protections: Proposing broader gun ownership rights, including limitations on federal background checks and support for “constitutional carry” policies nationwide.
  24. Revising Higher Education Funding: Ending federal student loan forgiveness programs, reducing Pell Grants, and incentivizing private sector involvement in funding education.
  25. Reversing Environmental Protections: Rolling back the Endangered Species Act and loosening regulations on public land use to encourage resource extraction industries.
  26. Restricting Science Funding: Limiting funding to federal research agencies such as the National Institutes of Health (NIH) for studies seen as politically motivated, including climate science and social science research.
  27. Promoting “American Values” in Schools: Mandating curricula that focus on American patriotism and traditional values, while discouraging teachings on critical race theory or gender studies.
  28. Reforming the Federal Reserve: Increasing executive oversight of the Federal Reserve to align its monetary policies more closely with presidential priorities.
  29. Overhauling Voting Infrastructure: Implementing policies to mandate strict voter ID laws and limit absentee ballots, aiming to reduce alleged voter fraud but potentially impacting voter access.
  30. Abolishing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB): Proposing the dismantling of the CFPB to reduce federal oversight in financial markets and limit protections for consumers.
  31. Reevaluating U.S. Membership in International Organizations: Reviewing participation in organizations like the United Nations and the World Health Organization to assess alignment with conservative values.
  32. Restricting Asylum Protections: Tightening criteria for asylum seekers and fast-tracking deportations for those not meeting stricter standards.
  33. Encouraging School Choice Initiatives: Promoting voucher programs and charter schools to increase educational options and reduce the role of traditional public schools.
  34. Deregulating Wall Street: Repealing aspects of the Dodd-Frank Act to limit restrictions on financial institutions, which proponents argue would stimulate economic growth.
  35. Eliminating “Sanctuary Cities”: Withholding federal funds from cities that do not comply with federal immigration enforcement laws.
  36. Redefining Sex and Gender in Federal Policies: Limiting definitions to biological sex at birth, effectively reversing federal recognition of gender identity in many areas.
  37. Banning Certain Public Health Policies: Opposing federal mask mandates or vaccination requirements, proposing states make their own public health decisions.
  38. Promoting Christian Faith in Public Life: Advocating for policies that would support Christian values and traditions in public institutions, schools, and government policies.
  39. Enhancing Border Security: Expanding the border wall, increasing the number of Border Patrol agents, and implementing stricter security measures.
  40. Revisiting Net Neutrality: Repealing net neutrality rules to allow internet service providers more control over network management and pricing.
  41. Reorganizing the IRS: Limiting the IRS’s ability to audit the wealthy, while increasing scrutiny of organizations perceived as partisan.
  42. Limiting Collective Bargaining Rights: Reducing the power of unions, especially those representing federal employees, to negotiate over working conditions.
  43. Restricting Foreign Land Ownership: Limiting foreign ownership of U.S. agricultural land and other critical resources to prioritize American interests.
  44. Reforming Disaster Relief Programs: Proposing reforms to FEMA to increase state responsibility for disaster response and recovery efforts.
  45. Restricting Affirmative Action Policies: Banning race-based affirmative action in federal hiring and contracting to prioritize merit-based selection.
  46. Enhancing Cybersecurity through Privatization: Promoting private-sector solutions to cybersecurity threats rather than federal programs.
  47. Creating a National Registry for Criminal Immigrants: Establishing a registry of non-citizen criminals to facilitate monitoring and deportation efforts.
  48. Reevaluating Foreign Policy Alliances: Prioritizing alliances based on immediate American interests, potentially reducing support for NATO and other long-standing partnerships.
  49. Promoting Fossil Fuel Development: Supporting the expansion of oil drilling, natural gas, and coal industries, reducing reliance on foreign energy sources.
  50. Restricting Access to Public Health Programs for Immigrants: Limiting non-citizens’ access to public health benefits, including Medicaid and SNAP, to prioritize resources for citizens.
  51. Abolishing the National Endowment for the Arts (NEA): Ending federal support for the arts, redirecting funds to other conservative policy priorities.
  52. Increasing Military Presence at the Border: Deploying military resources to assist in border security operations, enhancing surveillance and enforcement.
  53. Revoking Environmental Justice Initiatives: Rolling back policies aimed at addressing environmental inequities in low-income or minority communities.
  54. Implementing a National Database for Criminal Records: Expanding a centralized criminal database accessible to all states, focusing on monitoring high-risk individuals.
  55. Removing Protections for Protected Lands: Opening up federal lands currently under conservation for commercial use, including logging, mining, and drilling.
  56. Incentivizing Corporate Tax Cuts: Providing further tax breaks for corporations to encourage job creation and investment within the U.S.
  57. Limiting FDA Oversight: Reducing regulatory authority of the Food and Drug Administration, particularly around drug and supplement approvals.
  58. Promoting Traditional Gender Roles in Media: Encouraging media programs that portray traditional family structures and values.
  59. Repealing Renewable Energy Subsidies: Phasing out federal support for renewable energy projects in favor of traditional energy sources.
  60. Eliminating Title IX Gender Equality Requirements in Schools: Reducing federal oversight on gender equality in educational institutions.
  61. Revamping FEMA’s Role: Reassigning certain FEMA responsibilities to local and state governments to reduce federal disaster spending.
  62. Reducing Foreign Student Visas: Limiting visas available for international students, arguing it would make more space for domestic students.
  63. Reforming Foreign Aid to Prioritize Security: Shifting foreign aid to a security-based model, cutting support for humanitarian programs unless directly tied to U.S. security interests.
  64. Ending Protections for Wetlands: Reversing regulations protecting wetlands to encourage development in these areas.
  65. Limiting Antitrust Enforcement: Reducing the focus on breaking up monopolies to encourage growth among large American corporations.
  66. Expanding Private Prisons: Increasing use of private prisons to handle federal inmates and immigration detention, reducing the burden on public facilities.
  67. Restricting LGBTQ+ Representation in Schools: Limiting discussions of LGBTQ+ topics in school curricula, reinforcing parental rights in education.
  68. Eliminating Public Sector Pensions: Transitioning public employees from pension plans to 401(k)-style retirement plans.
  69. Increasing Surveillance of Online Speech: Expanding government monitoring of online platforms to curb speech deemed a national security risk.
  70. Removing Funding for Low-Income Housing: Cutting federal assistance for affordable housing projects, promoting market-based solutions for housing.
  71. Privatizing Medicare Services: Moving Medicare toward private providers, potentially increasing costs for recipients while limiting federal spending.
  72. Banning Critical Race Theory (CRT) in Military Training: Removing diversity training and CRT-focused instruction from military education.
  73. Limiting Access to Public Defenders: Reducing funding for public defenders, arguing it would incentivize states to reform their justice systems.
  74. Defunding WHO Initiatives on Global Health: Reducing support for WHO programs, particularly those focused on global reproductive and women’s health.
  75. Limiting Federal Loan Programs: Scaling back federal loan programs, encouraging reliance on private lenders for educational and business loans.
  76. Increasing Oversight of Nonprofits: Tightening regulations on nonprofits, especially those receiving federal grants, to ensure alignment with conservative values.
  77. Eliminating National Parks Funding: Cutting federal funding for the maintenance and expansion of national parks, pushing for private partnerships to sustain these areas.
  78. Promoting Fossil Fuel Exports: Incentivizing the export of fossil fuels, arguing it would boost the economy and reduce foreign dependence.
  79. Restricting Foreign Investment in Tech Firms: Limiting foreign ownership in tech companies to prevent potential national security risks.
  80. Revoking Civil Rights Protections for Certain Classes: Reassessing anti-discrimination laws that some believe overstep individual freedoms in areas like housing and employment.
  81. Privatizing Postal Services: Moving the U.S. Postal Service toward private management to reduce federal oversight and expenditures.
  82. Mandating E-Verify for All Employers: Requiring all employers to use the E-Verify system to ensure employees’ legal work status, emphasizing national security.
  83. Creating a ‘Values-Based’ Hiring System for Public Agencies: Encouraging agencies to prioritize hiring individuals aligned with conservative principles.
  84. Reducing the Role of Public Health in Policy: Deemphasizing public health mandates in favor of personal responsibility, particularly in the context of pandemics.
  85. Implementing Mandatory Work Requirements for Welfare: Expanding work requirements for all welfare recipients, emphasizing self-sufficiency.
  86. Removing Federal Restrictions on Development in Indigenous Lands: Allowing development projects on tribal lands without federal limitations.
  87. Privatizing Federal Prisons: Expanding the role of private prisons to house more federal inmates as a cost-cutting measure.
  88. Increasing Border Wall Construction: Allocating more funding to complete the U.S.-Mexico border wall to deter illegal immigration.
  89. Limiting Federal Research Grants: Prioritizing federal research funds toward fields deemed nationally beneficial, like technology and defense.
  90. Expanding Logging and Mining on Public Lands: Increasing logging and mining permissions on federal lands for economic gain.
  91. Creating a National Voter ID Law: Mandating that all voters present ID at polls, standardizing this requirement nationwide.
  92. Supporting Faith-Based Adoption Agencies: Allowing federal funds for faith-based agencies that may discriminate based on religious criteria.
  93. Allowing Religious Instruction in Public Schools: Permitting faith-based instruction and prayer in public schools to promote religious values.
  94. Reducing Background Checks for Firearm Purchases: Loosening restrictions on gun purchases, emphasizing Second Amendment rights.
  95. Expanding Military Funding for Domestic Law Enforcement: Allowing local police to access military-grade equipment and funding for counter-terrorism.
  96. Eliminating Federal Anti-Drug Programs: Reducing federal intervention in drug-related issues, leaving states to handle the opioid crisis and drug abuse.
  97. Ending Federal Involvement in Agriculture Subsidies: Phasing out subsidies for farming, arguing the free market should guide agricultural production.
  98. Promoting Traditional Christian Holidays: Mandating public recognition and celebration of traditional Christian holidays at the federal level.
  99. Implementing Stricter Guidelines for Naturalization: Making the path to U.S. citizenship more stringent, with a focus on assimilating into “American values.”
  100. Revisiting the Constitution to Expand Presidential Powers: Supporting constitutional amendments to broaden the executive branch’s authority over the judiciary and legislative branches.
  101. Implementing a National Moratorium on New Federal Regulations: Instituting a freeze on new federal regulations across all agencies, with exceptions only for national security.
  102. Enhancing Parental Control in Education: Supporting legislation that would allow parents more direct control over school curricula, including the right to review all teaching materials.
  103. Restricting Access to Birthright Citizenship: Proposing a constitutional amendment or reinterpretation to limit birthright citizenship to children of U.S. citizens and lawful residents only.
  104. Abolishing the Department of Labor: Transferring its functions to other federal or state entities, with the aim of reducing federal involvement in labor standards.
  105. Revisiting the Affordable Care Act: Rolling back provisions of the Affordable Care Act (ACA), particularly those related to insurance mandates and Medicaid expansion.
  106. Revoking Federal Housing Discrimination Protections: Reducing HUD’s role in enforcing housing discrimination laws to limit federal intervention in private housing markets.
  107. Privatizing Social Security Options: Offering a private investment option within Social Security, which could potentially impact future payouts and shift financial risk to individuals.
  108. Mandating Police Presence in Schools: Requiring that schools implement school resource officers to enforce security and deter potential threats.
  109. Eliminating Federal Funding for Sanctuary Hospitals: Restricting funds for hospitals that provide services to undocumented immigrants, promoting a strict alignment with immigration laws.
  110. Rolling Back Wage and Hour Laws: Reducing federal wage and hour regulations, such as overtime pay requirements, to provide more flexibility for businesses.
  111. Restricting Media Access to Government Proceedings: Limiting press access to certain government events or agencies, arguing for increased control over government transparency.
  112. Reducing Federal Involvement in Emergency Health Responses: Transferring the responsibility for health crises to state and local governments, reducing the role of agencies like the CDC.
  113. Promoting “Western Civilization” in Higher Education: Creating incentives for colleges to prioritize courses on Western civilization, history, and traditional American values.
  114. Reducing Federal Support for Non-Traditional Family Planning Services: Cutting funding to programs that provide services outside traditional family planning.
  115. Encouraging ‘Faith-Based’ Correctional Programs: Promoting religiously oriented rehabilitation programs in federal prisons as part of inmate reformation.
  116. Expanding State Power over Voting Rules: Giving states more latitude to establish their own voting rules and regulations without federal oversight.
  117. Incentivizing Religious Content in Broadcasting: Offering tax incentives or grants to media companies that produce or broadcast religious and moral programming.
  118. Nationalizing E-Verify for All Job Seekers: Requiring that all new hires undergo E-Verify, including current employees during government audits.
  119. Expanding Cyber Defense Partnerships with Private Sector: Strengthening cybersecurity by increasing collaboration between the federal government and private technology companies.
  120. Promoting Bible-Based Curricula in Public Schools: Allowing public schools to offer courses focused on Biblical teachings as part of American history education.
  121. Supporting ‘Life at Conception’ Policies: Advocating for federal laws that recognize life beginning at conception, impacting abortion rights and medical practices.
  122. Creating a Federal Charter for ‘Patriotic’ Nonprofits: Establishing criteria for nonprofit organizations to receive federal funding based on their alignment with American values.
  123. Reducing Funds for Public Broadcasting Services (PBS and NPR): Redirecting or phasing out federal funds for PBS and NPR to reduce government spending.
  124. Allowing Foreign Policy to Reflect Christian Values: Aligning U.S. foreign policy more closely with Christian values, potentially impacting diplomacy with certain nations.
  125. Mandating Religious Liberty Programs in Federal Agencies: Requiring federal agencies to implement policies protecting religious liberty, even if it conflicts with other anti-discrimination laws.
  126. Increasing Penalties for Protests on Federal Property: Strengthening penalties for unauthorized demonstrations on federal property to ensure law and order.
  127. Imposing Restrictions on Non-Citizen Voting in Local Elections: Working with states to prevent non-citizens from voting in local or state elections.
  128. Requiring Military Service for Certain Federal Benefits: Proposing service requirements for certain federal benefits to foster a culture of service.
  129. Removing Federal Oversight of Employee Benefits: Allowing states to regulate employee benefits, such as healthcare and retirement plans, reducing federal intervention.
  130. Instituting ‘Free Speech Zones’: Designating specific areas for protests or demonstrations to maintain order and prevent disruptions to government operations.
  131. Proposing a ‘Balanced Budget Amendment’: Pushing for a constitutional amendment that would require the federal government to balance its budget annually.
  132. Incentivizing Marital Tax Benefits for Traditional Families: Expanding tax benefits for married, heterosexual couples to promote traditional family values.
  133. Reducing Federal Housing Standards: Loosening housing safety and environmental standards, arguing it would lower costs for builders and buyers.
  134. Mandating National Anthem at Public Events: Proposing policies to require the national anthem at federally funded public events as a show of patriotism.
  135. Supporting School Choice Vouchers Nationwide: Expanding federal support for school vouchers, allowing parents more freedom to choose schools for their children.
  136. Encouraging Privatization of National Monuments: Allowing private entities to manage and maintain national monuments to reduce federal costs.
  137. Revoking U.S. Commitment to Climate Agreements: Reconsidering U.S. involvement in international climate agreements to prioritize national energy interests.
  138. Defunding Comprehensive Sex Education: Promoting abstinence-only programs and reducing support for comprehensive sex education curricula.
  139. Revising Requirements for Federal Disability Programs: Increasing eligibility requirements for federal disability benefits to reduce federal spending.
  140. Eliminating All Affirmative Action Programs in Federal Agencies: Ensuring that federal agencies hire based solely on merit without consideration of race or gender.
  141. Creating Standards for ‘American Values’ in Public Art: Promoting public artworks that represent traditional American values and heritage.
  142. Expanding Faith-Based Organizations’ Roles in Federal Services: Allowing faith-based groups to handle social services like foster care and adoption.
  143. Implementing High-Security Measures in Public Spaces: Encouraging more extensive security measures in public spaces, including surveillance technology.
  144. Allowing States Full Control over Public Health Mandates: Removing federal influence over state public health mandates, especially for vaccination policies.
  145. Creating a National Charter of ‘Conservative Values’: Establishing guidelines and standards that federal employees must uphold, in alignment with conservative principles.
  146. Discouraging International Adoption: Limiting international adoption to prioritize American children in foster care.
  147. Increasing Oil Drilling in National Reserves: Pushing for drilling permits in protected reserves to enhance domestic oil production.
  148. Mandating American History and Civics Testing: Requiring students to pass American history and civics exams to graduate from high school.
  149. Restricting Access to Federal Education Grants for Non-Patriotic Programs: Withholding federal funds from educational programs that criticize American history or values.
  150. Expanding Federal Support for Faith-Based Rehabilitation: Promoting rehabilitation programs based on faith principles, particularly in prisons and correctional facilities.
  151. Defunding Scientific Research on Climate Change: Reducing federal funding for climate research, shifting focus to energy independence and fossil fuel investments.
  152. Establishing a Federal Curriculum Review Board: Creating a board to oversee and approve public school curricula, ensuring alignment with traditional American values.
  153. Expanding Requirements for Drug Testing in Welfare Programs: Mandating drug testing for welfare recipients, linking benefits to sobriety and drug-free status.
  154. Revoking Tax-Exempt Status for Non-Patriotic Organizations: Reassessing tax-exempt status for nonprofits perceived as opposing American interests or values.
  155. Banning the Use of ESG Criteria in Federal Contracts: Prohibiting environmental, social, and governance (ESG) criteria in government contracting decisions.
  156. Mandating U.S.-Based Manufacturing for Federal Contracts: Requiring federal contractors to manufacture goods within the United States to stimulate the domestic economy.
  157. Prioritizing Federal Aid for “Patriotic” States: Allocating more federal funding to states that align with conservative policies, reducing aid to those seen as opposing them.
  158. Restricting Content in Public Libraries: Proposing federal guidelines to remove books and materials deemed inappropriate, especially related to gender and sexuality topics.
  159. Enacting a “Religious Freedom Restoration” in Public Schools: Protecting student-led religious activities and allowing greater expression of faith in public school settings.
  160. Limiting Judicial Review of Executive Orders: Proposing limitations on courts’ ability to block executive orders to enhance presidential authority.
  161. Encouraging Charter Schools with Religious Foundations: Providing federal support for religious charter schools, especially those that teach Christian values.
  162. Requiring Government Employees to Swear an Oath of Patriotism: Mandating federal employees to take an oath that reinforces loyalty to American values and the Constitution.
  163. Creating Restrictions on Gender-Affirming Care: Implementing federal restrictions on healthcare providers offering gender-affirming treatments, particularly for minors.
  164. Reducing Scope of Federal Oversight on Public Water Systems: Allowing local control over water quality standards, with less federal regulation.
  165. Expanding Use of Facial Recognition for Security: Advocating for facial recognition in high-traffic federal facilities to enhance security measures.
  166. Implementing Federal Guidelines for Social Media: Setting standards for permissible social media content to reduce perceived threats to national security.
  167. Promoting ‘Patriotic’ History in National Parks: Requiring historical presentations in national parks to emphasize patriotic themes and American exceptionalism.
  168. Introducing a ‘Religious Freedom Day’ as a National Holiday: Recognizing a national holiday dedicated to the protection and celebration of religious freedom.
  169. Reducing Role of Federal Mediation in Labor Disputes: Limiting federal involvement in labor negotiations, allowing employers and employees to resolve issues independently.
  170. Strengthening Federal Penalties for Crimes Against Police: Enhancing penalties for crimes against law enforcement to underscore support for police.
  171. Requiring Biometric Data for Government ID Programs: Expanding the collection of biometric data in government identification systems, including fingerprints and facial scans.
  172. Allowing Local Police More Authority on Federal Land: Granting local law enforcement broader jurisdiction over crimes on federally owned land.
  173. Mandating Abstinence-Only Sex Education: Promoting federal standards for abstinence-focused sex education, discouraging comprehensive sex education programs.
  174. Prioritizing Domestic Supply Chains for Essential Goods: Supporting legislation that mandates essential goods be manufactured domestically to ensure supply chain security.
  175. Increasing Penalties for Illegal Immigration: Establishing minimum penalties for illegal immigration offenses to deter border crossings.
  176. Expanding Work Requirements for Public Housing Assistance: Requiring recipients of public housing aid to meet work or volunteer requirements.
  177. Restricting Federal Aid for Higher Education Programs Seen as ‘Anti-American’: Withholding aid from colleges and universities that host events or programs deemed unpatriotic.
  178. Creating a ‘Civic Literacy’ Exam Requirement: Requiring high school students to pass a government-designed civic literacy test to graduate.
  179. Allowing Religious Observances in Federal Workplaces: Permitting federal employees to observe religious practices in the workplace, as long as they don’t interfere with duties.
  180. Promoting a ‘Patriot Education Act’: Supporting a national act to promote American history, patriotism, and traditional values in educational systems.
  181. Requiring Federal Support for Pro-Life Pregnancy Centers: Directing federal funds toward pro-life pregnancy centers and limiting support for clinics that offer abortion services.
  182. Reducing Restrictions on Development in Coastal Areas: Easing regulations that restrict construction and commercial development in federally protected coastal areas.
  183. Requiring Mandatory Reporting of Undocumented Immigrants by Local Authorities: Mandating that state and local authorities report undocumented immigrants to federal immigration officials.
  184. Establishing a National ‘Character Education’ Initiative: Implementing a federal initiative to teach values like respect, integrity, and discipline in schools.
  185. Creating State-Administered Federal Health Programs: Transitioning federal health programs like Medicaid to state administration with federal oversight.
  186. Encouraging Churches to Participate in Social Services: Expanding roles for faith-based organizations in delivering social services previously administered by government agencies.
  187. Removing Climate Change from Military Priorities: Reducing emphasis on climate change preparedness within military training and operations.
  188. Promoting Traditional Marriage Initiatives: Supporting programs that emphasize marriage between a man and woman as foundational to society.
  189. Supporting American Farming with Protectionist Measures: Imposing tariffs or restrictions on imported agricultural goods to protect American farmers.
  190. Restricting Federal Funding for Arts Promoting Social Justice: Limiting grants to arts programs seen as promoting political or social justice messages.
  191. Increasing State Power over Voter ID Standards: Supporting states that choose to implement stricter voter ID laws for federal elections.
  192. Enhancing Penalties for Vandalism of Federal Monuments: Raising penalties for damaging federal monuments to deter vandalism.
  193. Revising Zoning Laws for Federal Land: Allowing states more influence over zoning and development on federal lands within their borders.
  194. Mandating Military Training for Public School Students: Encouraging states to offer military-style training in high school as part of physical education.
  195. Establishing New Federal Holiday for Founding Fathers: Introducing a holiday to celebrate the contributions of the Founding Fathers.
  196. Creating Government-Endorsed Patriotic Symbols and Merchandise: Supporting the sale of government-approved patriotic symbols to foster national pride.
  197. Discouraging Funding for ‘Woke’ Corporate Programs: Limiting government contracts with companies that promote diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) policies.
  198. Removing Government Incentives for Electric Vehicles: Reducing or eliminating federal tax credits for electric vehicles, emphasizing fuel independence.
  199. Revising Public Health Policies to Emphasize Individual Freedom: Moving away from federal health mandates, allowing citizens more control over their healthcare choices.
  200. Encouraging Partnerships with Private Schools Over Public Schools: Redirecting federal support toward private schooling options, including those with religious foundations.
  201. Reforming FDA Food Standards: Reducing federal regulations on food labeling and safety standards, encouraging a market-driven approach.
  202. Restricting Federally Funded Scientific Research on Gender: Limiting federal grants for research related to gender studies, focusing resources on fields deemed more essential.
  203. Encouraging Prayer at Government Meetings: Supporting policies that allow opening prayers or invocations at government events and meetings.
  204. Prioritizing American-made Products in Federal Procurement: Mandating that federal agencies prioritize purchasing American-made products, even if they are more expensive.
  205. Supporting a ‘Family Values Tax Credit’: Providing tax credits for families that follow traditional structures, aimed at incentivizing marriage and family stability.
  206. Discouraging Teaching of Evolution in Public Schools: Supporting policies that give states the option to teach creationism or other theories alongside evolution.
  207. Reducing Federal Research on Environmental Impacts of Industry: Minimizing federal involvement in studies related to environmental impacts of industrial activity, leaving it to states and private organizations.
  208. Promoting ‘True American History’ Curricula: Developing a federal guideline for history classes that emphasizes American achievements, downplays criticisms, and excludes CRT-based materials.
  209. Reforming the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division: Narrowing the scope of the Civil Rights Division to focus on traditional, rather than expanded, definitions of civil rights.
  210. Supporting Law Enforcement with Federal Anti-Protest Measures: Imposing tougher restrictions on protests against law enforcement to deter violence or anti-police demonstrations.
  211. Promoting Economic Nationalism: Favoring policies that prioritize American businesses and limit outsourcing and imports to boost U.S. manufacturing.
  212. Restricting Federal Funding for International Climate Efforts: Redirecting funds allocated for global climate initiatives to domestic economic growth and energy independence.
  213. Supporting Religious-Based Adoption Policies: Allowing federally funded adoption agencies to make placements based on religious beliefs.
  214. Reevaluating Public Transit Funding: Reducing federal support for public transportation in favor of private and state-led initiatives.
  215. Increasing Civil Forfeiture Capabilities for Law Enforcement: Expanding the ability of law enforcement to seize property associated with suspected criminal activity.
  216. Promoting Traditional Art and Architecture Standards for Federal Buildings: Mandating that new federal buildings be designed in a traditional, classical style rather than modern or abstract designs.
  217. Reducing Federal Restrictions on Charitable Donations to Religious Groups: Providing additional tax incentives for donations to religious organizations.
  218. Requiring Federal Agencies to Use Patriotic Themes in Public Outreach: Encouraging agencies to use patriotic messaging in public service announcements and educational programs.
  219. Limiting Federal Regulations on Corporate Speech: Reducing restrictions on corporate political contributions and speech, particularly for U.S.-based companies.
  220. Reversing Federal Protections for Affirmative Action in Private Universities: Supporting states in banning affirmative action policies in both public and private higher education.
  221. Removing Federal Regulation of Cryptocurrency: Reducing oversight of cryptocurrency markets to allow for freer innovation and growth in the digital economy.
  222. Mandating Federal Employee Training on Traditional American Values: Requiring training programs for federal employees focused on patriotism and traditional values.
  223. Expanding Work Requirements for Federal Food Assistance Programs: Requiring able-bodied adults to work or participate in job training to qualify for SNAP benefits.
  224. Allowing Greater State Control Over Public Health Research: Transferring public health research funding to states, encouraging localized approaches to health issues.
  225. Restricting Federal Role in Rent Control Policies: Opposing federal interventions in rent control, advocating for market-driven housing solutions.
  226. Reducing Federal Protections for Labor Unions: Limiting the power and protections for labor unions, particularly in public sector unions.
  227. Supporting Faith-Based Financial Services: Encouraging the creation of faith-based alternatives to conventional banking and financial services, with federal incentives.
  228. Promoting Private Investment in National Infrastructure: Moving infrastructure projects away from federal funding toward private investments through tax incentives.
  229. Removing Diversity Quotas in Federal Contracts: Eliminating requirements that federal contractors meet certain diversity benchmarks.
  230. Reforming the Voting Rights Act: Reducing federal oversight in state election practices, giving more power back to states to manage their voting laws.
  231. Supporting the Reduction of Corporate Taxes for Patriotism-Based Business Standards: Offering tax reductions to companies that follow specific American patriotism standards.
  232. Expanding Resources for Homeland Security in Cybersecurity: Increasing funding for cybersecurity under Homeland Security, especially for combating foreign cyber threats.
  233. Mandating Pro-Police Education Programs in Public Schools: Encouraging schools to implement programs that teach students to respect and support law enforcement.
  234. Eliminating Federal Funding for Renewable Energy Development: Phasing out federal investment in renewable energy technologies in favor of traditional energy resources.
  235. Reevaluating U.S. Foreign Aid for International Religious Freedom: Focusing foreign aid to support countries that align with U.S. perspectives on religious freedom.
  236. Promoting Abstinence in Public Health Policy: Prioritizing abstinence and risk-avoidance strategies in federal health initiatives.
  237. Expanding the Role of Private Security Contractors in Federal Agencies: Encouraging federal agencies to use private security contractors instead of public security personnel.
  238. Instituting Minimum Sentencing Guidelines for Property Crimes: Supporting strict minimum sentencing for property-related crimes as a deterrent measure.
  239. Mandating Pro-American Curriculum in Federal Schools: Ensuring that curricula in federally funded schools, including on military bases, emphasize American ideals.
  240. Expanding Faith-Based Substance Abuse Programs: Redirecting funding toward religious or faith-based programs for addiction recovery.
  241. Allowing Oil Drilling in Protected Wilderness Areas: Opening federally protected wilderness areas for controlled drilling and resource extraction.
  242. Establishing a National Day for the Military: Proposing a federal holiday dedicated to honoring the U.S. military and promoting patriotism.
  243. Requiring Loyalty Oaths for Federal Contracts: Mandating that recipients of federal contracts affirm support for American principles.
  244. Increasing Penalties for Cyber Attacks on Government Systems: Expanding criminal penalties for hacking and other cyber crimes targeting federal systems.
  245. Supporting Traditional Gender Roles in Military Recruitment: Tailoring recruitment materials to promote traditional gender roles within military service.
  246. Eliminating the Bureau of Indian Affairs (BIA): Proposing the dissolution of the BIA, with tribal matters managed at the state level or directly by tribes.
  247. Allowing States Full Control Over Environmental Protection: Removing federal oversight on environmental regulations, giving states full authority over their own standards.
  248. Mandating ‘American Values’ Training for New Citizens: Requiring citizenship applicants to complete training focused on American history and values.
  249. Reforming the Endangered Species Act to Allow Development: Modifying the Endangered Species Act to prioritize economic growth over habitat preservation.
  250. Establishing a “Patriot’s Tax Credit”: Offering tax incentives for individuals and companies that promote patriotic values or engage in activities that benefit U.S. interests.
  251. Reforming Federal Research on Public Health Initiatives: Redirecting federal health research funding from areas such as mental health and reproductive health to traditional healthcare priorities.
  252. Implementing School Funding Tied to ‘American Values’: Conditioning federal education funding on adherence to curricula promoting American patriotism and history.
  253. Prioritizing Local Law Enforcement Training Over Federal Oversight: Encouraging localized training programs for police forces instead of federal training mandates, advocating for local authority in policing practices.
  254. Creating Penalties for Social Media Censorship of Conservative Voices: Proposing legal repercussions for social media companies that censor content deemed conservative or patriotic.
  255. Scaling Back Federal Role in Highway and Infrastructure Projects: Reducing the federal budget for infrastructure to allow state and private sector management of roads, highways, and bridges.
  256. Expanding Federal Support for Pro-Business States: Offering additional federal incentives and grants to states that adopt pro-business policies and deregulate economic activity.
  257. Restricting Access to Certain Forms of Family Planning Through Medicaid: Limiting federal funds for contraceptives and other family planning services in Medicaid, except for abstinence programs.
  258. Encouraging Privatization of Public Libraries: Supporting state and local efforts to privatize libraries, removing them from public funding structures to reduce local government budgets.
  259. Mandating National Standards for Voting Machines: Requiring stringent standards for voting machines to ensure uniformity and security across states, with a focus on preventing fraud.
  260. Revoking Federal Funds from Institutions Supporting Critical Race Theory: Cutting funding for public universities and research institutions that include Critical Race Theory in their curriculum.
  261. Eliminating Federal Wildlife Conservation Programs: Moving conservation efforts to the state level, focusing federal resources on economic priorities rather than wildlife protection.
  262. Limiting Federal Role in Corporate Environmental Regulations: Allowing corporations more freedom in environmental practices with less federal oversight, reducing compliance costs.
  263. Instituting a ‘Pro-Life Tax Credit’ for Families with Children: Providing tax credits for families with children under the age of 18 to incentivize family growth and stability.
  264. Proposing an Amendment to Limit Supreme Court Tenure: Supporting a constitutional amendment to implement term limits or age limits for Supreme Court justices.
  265. Mandating Military Enlistment Requirements Based on Physical Standards: Requiring strict physical standards for military enlistees, moving away from inclusive recruitment policies.
  266. Encouraging Religious-Based Youth Programs: Providing federal grants to organizations that offer youth programs rooted in traditional religious teachings and values.
  267. Expanding Use of Surveillance Drones for National Security: Increasing funding for drone surveillance programs, particularly along the border and in areas of suspected criminal activity.
  268. Promoting English-Only Policies in Federal Communications: Mandating that all federal communications and documents be in English only, emphasizing unity through language.
  269. Supporting Parental Consent for School Counseling: Proposing that schools obtain parental consent for students to receive any counseling services, including mental health support.
  270. Reducing Federal Taxes for Homeschooling Families: Offering tax breaks to families who homeschool, incentivizing private education choices.
  271. Incentivizing American-Owned Manufacturing Facilities: Providing tax credits and subsidies for companies that open and operate manufacturing plants within the U.S.
  272. Creating Federal Standards for Religious Expression in Public Schools: Enabling schools to adopt guidelines allowing religious expressions, such as prayer and scripture readings.
  273. Implementing Federal Caps on Welfare Benefits: Setting a limit on the total benefits an individual can receive from all federal welfare programs.
  274. Establishing National Standards for Law Enforcement Uniforms: Proposing a standard uniform for federal and state law enforcement to foster unity and professionalism.
  275. Supporting Farm Subsidies Tied to Food Security: Offering subsidies only to farms that prioritize food production for U.S. markets, reducing dependence on imports.
  276. Defunding Grants for Academic Research in Social Justice: Removing federal funding from universities and research institutions that focus on social justice studies.
  277. Creating Financial Incentives for American Families: Expanding tax benefits, credits, and subsidies for families that have multiple children.
  278. Requiring Social Media to Publish User Data Transparency Reports: Mandating regular transparency reports detailing social media platforms’ data usage practices.
  279. Eliminating Federal Oversight on Apprenticeships and Trade Schools: Allowing trade schools and apprenticeships to operate without federal standards or oversight.
  280. Promoting Water Conservation Through State Control: Transferring water conservation responsibilities to state governments, reducing federal environmental intervention.
  281. Creating a Nationwide Database of Immigrants’ Criminal Records: Establishing a national criminal record database exclusively for immigrants to aid law enforcement.
  282. Expanding Federal Support for Nuclear Energy: Increasing funding and reducing regulations for nuclear energy as an alternative to renewable sources like wind and solar.
  283. Allowing States to Establish Their Own Sanctuary Laws: Permitting states to opt-out of federal immigration policies and establish sanctuary laws that fit local needs.
  284. Supporting Local Initiatives to Privatize Higher Education: Encouraging states to reduce public funding for universities and consider privatization options.
  285. Limiting Federal Mandates on Healthcare Insurance Providers: Easing federal restrictions on healthcare providers to reduce costs and increase provider flexibility.
  286. Mandating ‘Pro-Life’ Policies in Federal Healthcare: Ensuring that federal healthcare programs do not cover abortion-related services.
  287. Expanding State Control Over Disability Benefits: Transferring administration of disability benefits to states to manage independently, with reduced federal guidelines.
  288. Creating a Federal Apprenticeship Program for High School Graduates: Offering alternatives to college by supporting vocational apprenticeships immediately after high school.
  289. Enacting Stronger Anti-Trust Laws for Foreign-Owned Businesses: Ensuring that foreign companies are not able to monopolize key American industries.
  290. Encouraging ‘Patriotism-Driven’ Film and Media Production: Providing grants and tax incentives for films and media projects that promote American patriotism.
  291. Requiring Content Warnings for Media Targeting Youth: Enforcing content warnings on youth-oriented media that addresses topics like sexuality, gender, or violence.
  292. Mandating Full-Time Employment Requirements for Medicaid: Requiring able-bodied Medicaid recipients to work full-time or participate in job training programs.
  293. Establishing a New Federal Holiday to Honor First Responders: Proposing a holiday dedicated to celebrating police, firefighters, and emergency medical personnel.
  294. Reducing Federal Spending on Foreign Language Education Programs: Limiting federal funding for foreign language programs, focusing resources on English education.
  295. Encouraging Law Enforcement Presence in High-Crime Areas: Supporting increased law enforcement funding for communities with high crime rates.
  296. Mandating Annual ‘Patriotism Day’ in Public Schools: Requiring all public schools to celebrate a ‘Patriotism Day’ that focuses on American heritage and values.
  297. Allowing Federal Contracting Exclusively for U.S. Companies: Proposing that federal contracts be awarded only to U.S.-based companies.
  298. Requiring Full Body Scans for Air Travel: Mandating full-body scans as a security standard for all commercial air travelers to ensure safety.
  299. Removing Subsidies for Academic Research in Non-STEM Fields: Limiting federal support for research in the humanities and social sciences, prioritizing STEM fields.
  300. Establishing a Federal Education Standard on Nationalism: Encouraging schools to teach nationalism and the importance of national identity.
  301. Mandating American History Exams for High School Graduation: Requiring students to pass a federal history exam focused on patriotism and American achievements to graduate from high school.
  302. Implementing Uniform Sentencing Standards for Federal Crimes: Standardizing sentencing across federal crimes to eliminate perceived inconsistencies, emphasizing law and order.
  303. Prioritizing Military Recruitment in Rural Areas: Increasing recruitment efforts in rural regions to promote military service in traditionally underserved areas.
  304. Reducing Oversight on Private Health Insurance Plans: Allowing more flexibility for private insurers to design health plans with fewer federal requirements on coverage.
  305. Supporting Faith-Based Rehabilitation Programs in Prisons: Increasing funding for religious programs that offer rehabilitation and vocational training for incarcerated individuals.
  306. Reducing Federal Regulation of Telecommunications: Easing restrictions on telecommunications companies, including cell and internet providers, to encourage private-sector growth.
  307. Expanding Federal Support for Christian Schools: Offering financial incentives to private Christian schools, especially in underserved communities.
  308. Creating an ‘America First’ Agriculture Program: Focusing federal agricultural subsidies on farms that primarily serve domestic markets, reducing dependence on imports.
  309. Supporting the Reestablishment of Trade Schools in Rural Areas: Providing federal grants to create or expand trade schools in rural communities, offering alternative career paths.
  310. Expanding Federal Powers to Combat Illegal Immigration at Ports: Increasing security measures and surveillance at major ports of entry to reduce illegal immigration.
  311. Offering Federal Tax Credits for Home-Schooling Expenses: Providing tax deductions or credits to families who choose to home-school their children.
  312. Strengthening Drug Trafficking Penalties: Implementing stricter sentencing guidelines for drug trafficking, especially for opioids and other highly addictive substances.
  313. Implementing a National Identity Card: Establishing a federally issued ID card as a standard form of identification to enhance national security.
  314. Reducing Federal Funding for Environmental Cleanup Programs: Shifting responsibility for environmental cleanup efforts to states, reducing federal expenditure in this area.
  315. Supporting English-Only Driver’s License Exams: Encouraging states to administer driver’s license exams only in English to promote language unity.
  316. Requiring Physical Fitness Standards in Schools: Mandating minimum physical fitness requirements for public school students to combat childhood obesity.
  317. Mandating Patriotic Ceremonies in Federal Workplaces: Requiring federal agencies to hold regular patriotic ceremonies or observances to foster national pride.
  318. Increasing Federal Support for Oil Refining Capacity: Incentivizing domestic oil refining to reduce reliance on imported refined petroleum products.
  319. Expanding Local Jurisdiction Over Gun Rights: Allowing states greater autonomy in deciding gun laws, including concealed carry regulations.
  320. Mandating Parental Approval for Sex Education in Schools: Requiring schools to obtain explicit parental consent before students participate in sex education classes.
  321. Expanding Military Partnerships with Faith-Based Organizations: Collaborating with religious organizations for recruitment, counseling, and support programs within the military.
  322. Restricting Federal Funding for Health Programs on Gender Identity: Limiting funds for health services focused on gender identity, directing resources to more traditional health issues.
  323. Revising Environmental Protection Laws to Prioritize Economic Growth: Altering federal environmental regulations to prioritize job creation and economic development over conservation.
  324. Requiring Proof of U.S. Residency for Public Benefits: Mandating strict residency proof for eligibility in federal programs, including housing and healthcare.
  325. Establishing a ‘Pro-Business’ Federal Grant Program: Providing grants to businesses that adhere to conservative policies and demonstrate a commitment to American values.
  326. Supporting State Rights to Define Marriage: Allowing each state to determine its own legal definition of marriage without federal intervention.
  327. Creating a ‘Family Stability Credit’ for Married Couples: Offering a tax credit for married couples who maintain a stable household for a defined period.
  328. Defunding Public Art Programs Not Aligned with Traditional Values: Limiting federal funding for public art projects that do not align with traditional American values.
  329. Promoting Charter Schools as a Public School Alternative: Providing additional federal funding for charter schools, particularly in low-income areas.
  330. Increasing National Guard Funding for Border Security: Allocating more funds to support National Guard deployments at the U.S. borders.
  331. Removing Federal Restrictions on Energy Development in Protected Areas: Permitting oil and natural gas drilling in areas that have been federally protected from energy development.
  332. Encouraging Career and Technical Education (CTE) Programs Over Four-Year Degrees: Providing funding for career training as a practical alternative to college.
  333. Implementing Age Verification for Internet Access: Requiring websites to verify the age of users to limit minors’ access to adult content.
  334. Requiring Transparency in Federal Research Funding Allocation: Mandating that federal research grants be publicly disclosed to ensure they align with national interests.
  335. Promoting Traditional Music and Arts in Schools: Offering grants for schools that prioritize traditional American music, art, and cultural heritage programs.
  336. Eliminating Federal Tax Exemptions for ‘Anti-American’ Nonprofits: Proposing that nonprofits deemed opposed to American values lose their tax-exempt status.
  337. Reducing Federal Influence Over Tribal Lands: Granting more autonomy to Native American tribes to manage their lands without federal oversight.
  338. Promoting the Pledge of Allegiance in Public Schools: Requiring students to recite the Pledge of Allegiance daily in public schools.
  339. Reducing Federal Funding for Higher Education Humanities Programs: Limiting federal support for humanities programs, directing funds to STEM and technical fields.
  340. Supporting Law Enforcement Use of Surveillance Technology: Expanding federal support for surveillance technology to aid law enforcement in tracking crime.
  341. Creating a Federal Apprenticeship Fund: Establishing a fund to promote apprenticeships as a viable alternative to traditional college pathways.
  342. Mandating Patriotic Curriculum in Head Start Programs: Introducing patriotic themes in early childhood education for federally funded preschool programs.
  343. Expanding Right-to-Work Legislation Nationwide: Supporting federal legislation that guarantees all states the option to implement right-to-work policies.
  344. Creating a National Database of Citizenship Information: Developing a database to track citizenship status for improved government recordkeeping and benefits management.
  345. Supporting Private Ownership of Federal Land: Encouraging the sale of federal lands to private owners to reduce government ownership of land.
  346. Allowing States to Set Their Own Minimum Wage Standards: Transferring minimum wage authority to states, reducing federal involvement in wage regulation.
  347. Mandating Parental Control Over School Curriculum: Requiring schools to provide full curriculum access to parents, empowering them to make decisions about their child’s education.
  348. Expanding Federal Law Enforcement Partnerships with Local Police: Increasing collaboration between federal and local law enforcement agencies to combat crime more effectively.
  349. Limiting Federal Power Over Land and Water Rights: Giving states greater authority over water rights and land use without federal intervention.
  350. Creating Tax Incentives for Patriotism-Based Businesses: Offering tax credits to businesses that demonstrate a commitment to American values and conservative principles.
  351. Supporting Faith-Based Health Care Networks: Providing federal funding and incentives for hospitals and clinics operated by faith-based organizations, particularly in underserved areas.
  352. Implementing Mandatory Drug Testing for Federal Assistance: Requiring drug tests for individuals receiving federal aid, such as housing or unemployment benefits, to encourage sobriety.
  353. Expanding Second Amendment Protections on Federal Property: Allowing concealed carry and open carry rights on federal lands and buildings, including national parks.
  354. Restricting Federal Research Funding for Gender Studies: Limiting funding for academic research related to gender and sexuality, focusing on traditional medical research.
  355. Providing Federal Grants for Farming in Rural America: Expanding support for small and family-owned farms to promote rural economic stability and reduce reliance on agribusiness.
  356. Mandating Federal Support for Patriotic Holidays in Public Spaces: Encouraging federal agencies to organize events celebrating patriotic holidays, such as Independence Day and Veterans Day.
  357. Expanding Federal Training Programs for Police Officers: Offering specialized federal training grants for local law enforcement officers, focusing on areas like counterterrorism and border security.
  358. Eliminating Federal Regulations on Private Charter Schools: Allowing charter schools to operate without federal requirements, offering more flexibility in their curriculum and operations.
  359. Requiring Health Screening for Immigrants at U.S. Borders: Implementing stricter health checks at entry points to reduce the spread of infectious diseases.
  360. Limiting Legal Liability for Police Officers: Proposing limits on personal lawsuits against law enforcement officers to protect them from litigation related to their duties.
  361. Promoting Traditional Family Values in Federal Communications: Encouraging federal agencies to promote family-oriented messaging and traditional family values in public communications.
  362. Reforming Federal Regulations on Agricultural Exports: Simplifying export processes for American farmers, encouraging more international trade of U.S.-grown products.
  363. Expanding State Control Over Federal Highway Funds: Granting states more discretion in how they allocate federal highway and infrastructure funds.
  364. Implementing Penalties for ‘Sanctuary’ Jurisdictions: Cutting federal funding to cities and states that do not comply with federal immigration laws.
  365. Supporting Veterans’ Return to Work Programs: Expanding federal support for veterans seeking employment, focusing on job placement in high-demand industries.
  366. Mandating a Minimum Detention Time for Arrested Immigrants: Proposing required detention periods for undocumented immigrants detained at the border, pending deportation hearings.
  367. Expanding the Federal Tax Credit for Traditional Marriages: Increasing tax incentives for married couples, emphasizing the societal benefits of traditional marriage.
  368. Encouraging States to Limit Jury Awards in Civil Lawsuits: Supporting state laws that cap damages in civil suits, aiming to reduce frivolous lawsuits and protect businesses.
  369. Reducing Federal Control Over Educational Standards: Allowing states to set their own educational benchmarks without adhering to federal standards like Common Core.
  370. Supporting Local Zoning Reforms to Increase Private Property Rights: Providing guidance and incentives for local governments to increase flexibility in property zoning laws.
  371. Restricting Federal Access to Personal Data in Non-Criminal Cases: Limiting federal data collection efforts to protect personal privacy, especially in cases not involving criminal investigations.
  372. Allowing Faith-Based Organizations to Partner with Public Schools: Promoting partnerships between religious groups and public schools for extracurricular programs.
  373. Incentivizing States to Abolish Inheritance Taxes: Offering federal benefits to states that repeal inheritance taxes, supporting the preservation of family wealth.
  374. Creating Federal Standards for Foster Care Based on Traditional Family Models: Recommending guidelines for foster care placements that prioritize traditional family environments.
  375. Restricting Federal Funds for Gender Reassignment Surgeries: Banning federal funding for gender-affirming surgeries in government-run or funded healthcare programs.
  376. Supporting States’ Rights to Determine Internet Censorship Policies: Allowing states to implement their own regulations on internet content access, tailored to local values.
  377. Promoting American Exceptionalism in Foreign Relations: Emphasizing the idea of American exceptionalism in international policy statements and diplomacy.
  378. Incentivizing Private Sector-Led Community Development: Encouraging private companies to take on local development projects with federal tax incentives.
  379. Eliminating Federal Requirements for Academic Tenure: Allowing universities and colleges to make tenure decisions independently of federal guidelines.
  380. Supporting a National ‘Bill of Rights Day’: Proposing an official holiday to celebrate and educate the public on the U.S. Bill of Rights.
  381. Reducing Funding for Non-STEM Programs in Higher Education: Prioritizing federal grants for STEM fields and reducing funding for humanities and arts programs.
  382. Encouraging Faith-Based Anti-Addiction Programs: Expanding federal support for addiction treatment programs that incorporate faith-based principles.
  383. Reducing Federal Involvement in Workplace Safety Standards: Allowing states to establish their own occupational safety standards, reducing OSHA’s role.
  384. Implementing a Federal Land Leasing Program for Private Development: Opening federally-owned land for lease to private developers, generating revenue and supporting economic growth.
  385. Creating Penalties for Social Media Platforms That Ban Political Speech: Imposing fines on social media companies that censor political speech, aiming to protect free expression.
  386. Mandating Parental Review of School Library Materials: Requiring public schools to allow parents to review and object to books and materials in school libraries.
  387. Limiting the Federal Role in Disaster Relief: Encouraging states to take primary responsibility for disaster response, with limited federal assistance.
  388. Supporting ‘American Heritage Education’ in Public Schools: Funding school programs that focus on American history, patriotism, and civics education.
  389. Mandating Biometric Identification for Voting: Supporting the use of biometric technology in elections to ensure secure voter identification and prevent fraud.
  390. Encouraging Private Health Savings Accounts (HSAs): Providing tax incentives for individuals to save for medical expenses in privately managed HSAs.
  391. Proposing a ‘Federalism Education’ Requirement for New Citizens: Requiring citizenship applicants to study federalism and states’ rights in their naturalization process.
  392. Restricting Federal Grants for Social Justice Projects: Redirecting funds from social justice-focused grants to projects that promote economic growth or national defense.
  393. Supporting State Control Over Federal Waterways: Allowing states to manage waterways within their borders, reducing federal jurisdiction over rivers and lakes.
  394. Creating Federal Guidelines for Parental Notification of School Curriculum Changes: Mandating that schools notify parents of changes to curricula, especially those involving social issues.
  395. Establishing a National ‘Parents’ Rights Day’: Recognizing a day to celebrate and affirm the rights of parents in directing their children’s education and upbringing.
  396. Reducing Federal Control of Endangered Species Protections: Transferring authority for species protection to states, reducing federal mandates on land use.
  397. Incentivizing Companies to Abandon ESG Practices: Offering tax breaks to businesses that move away from Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) criteria.
  398. Expanding Local Law Enforcement Access to Military Equipment: Increasing grants for local police to acquire surplus military equipment for crime prevention.
  399. Supporting States’ Rights to Regulate Homeschooling: Encouraging states to set their own standards for homeschooling, minimizing federal oversight.
  400. Creating a National Standard for School Resource Officers: Establishing minimum training and presence requirements for school resource officers to ensure safety.
  401. Encouraging States to Implement School Voucher Programs: Offering federal incentives to states that establish school voucher systems, allowing parents to choose private or charter schools for their children.
  402. Supporting Local Law Enforcement Over Federal Policing Efforts: Reducing federal policing initiatives in favor of bolstering state and local law enforcement capabilities.
  403. Promoting the Adoption of Civics Tests for Voting: Encouraging states to require basic civics knowledge tests as a prerequisite for voting, ensuring informed voter participation.
  404. Implementing National Standards for Faith-Based Counseling Services: Providing federal guidelines to ensure that faith-based counseling organizations meet certain standards while preserving their religious integrity.
  405. Establishing Federal Tax Credits for Traditional Childcare Providers: Offering tax benefits to daycare providers and preschools that promote traditional family values in their programming.
  406. Mandating Parental Notification of Gender-Related Curriculum in Schools: Requiring schools to inform parents of any curriculum involving gender studies or gender identity topics.
  407. Restricting Federal Support for Research on Non-Binary Identities: Limiting federal grants for academic research focused on non-binary gender identities, channeling funds to other research areas.
  408. Establishing Local Control Over Public Health Mandates: Encouraging local authorities to set health mandates independently of federal guidelines, tailoring them to regional needs.
  409. Creating Penalties for States that Do Not Cooperate with ICE: Proposing penalties, such as reduced federal funding, for states and municipalities that do not comply with Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) policies.
  410. Expanding National Database of Voting Records: Creating a centralized database for tracking voter registration and election data to reduce potential voter fraud.
  411. Restricting Federal Support for Arts Education in Public Schools: Limiting federal grants for arts programs, redirecting funds toward STEM and civics education.
  412. Encouraging Corporate ‘Buy American’ Policies: Offering tax incentives to companies that source materials and products from U.S.-based suppliers.
  413. Reforming Public School Standards to Emphasize Traditional Literature: Encouraging public schools to focus on American and Western classical literature over contemporary or diverse literature.
  414. Expanding State Authority Over Welfare Eligibility: Allowing states to set stricter eligibility criteria for welfare programs, reducing federal mandates.
  415. Restricting Gender-Affirming Care for Minors Nationwide: Supporting legislation to prohibit gender-affirming treatments for minors, regardless of state laws.
  416. Requiring Parental Consent for All Medical Procedures for Minors: Mandating that parents be notified and give consent for any medical procedures performed on minors, including vaccinations and mental health care.
  417. Expanding Protections for Law Enforcement During Protests: Implementing stronger federal protections for police officers during protests to prevent physical harm and harassment.
  418. Revising Federal Requirements for Nonprofit Organizations: Introducing stricter oversight for nonprofits to ensure they align with American values and do not promote anti-American agendas.
  419. Encouraging Public Displays of National Symbols: Providing grants for communities that install American flags, statues, or other patriotic symbols in public spaces.
  420. Creating Federal Guidelines for Historical Preservation of American Sites: Ensuring that historical sites related to American heritage and patriotism receive priority for preservation funding.
  421. Implementing Incentives for Community-Based Disaster Relief: Promoting community-led disaster response initiatives, reducing dependence on federal intervention.
  422. Creating National Standards for Civic Engagement Education: Encouraging schools to teach the importance of civic duty, voting, and national pride from an early age.
  423. Encouraging Federal Buildings to Use Energy Efficient Technologies: While not supporting mandates, providing incentives for federal buildings that adopt energy-efficient solutions.
  424. Eliminating Federal Programs for Reparations or Historical Compensation: Opposing federal reparations programs, advocating for policies that promote equality without historical compensation.
  425. Requiring Parental Access to School Records and Assessments: Mandating that schools provide parents with access to their children’s educational records and assessments.
  426. Reforming the Role of the FDA in Non-Traditional Medicine: Reducing regulatory barriers for alternative and holistic medicine practices, giving patients more options outside of conventional treatments.
  427. Increasing Security Measures in Federal Buildings: Enhancing surveillance and security protocols in federal buildings to ensure the safety of government employees and visitors.
  428. Supporting States in Establishing Constitutional Carry Laws: Encouraging states to adopt laws that allow individuals to carry firearms without permits or licenses.
  429. Creating Federal Standards for Patriotic Community Service Programs: Incentivizing community service programs that promote national pride and contribute to civic well-being.
  430. Revising Federal Property Leasing Policies for Corporate Use: Allowing private companies to lease federal lands and facilities for purposes that align with American economic interests.
  431. Establishing National Standards for Career and Technical Education: Promoting vocational education with a focus on trades and careers essential to the American economy.
  432. Restricting Federal Funds for Gender-Neutral Restrooms: Limiting federal funds for public buildings that convert or construct gender-neutral restrooms.
  433. Supporting Federal Laws on Fetal Personhood: Promoting federal recognition of fetal rights, which could impact abortion laws nationwide.
  434. Promoting Traditional Family Structures in Adoption Services: Favoring adoption services that prioritize placements within traditional family structures.
  435. Reducing Federal Regulations for Small Businesses: Minimizing federal compliance requirements for small businesses to stimulate local entrepreneurship.
  436. Encouraging Faith-Based Financial Literacy Programs: Providing grants for financial literacy programs conducted by faith-based organizations.
  437. Reforming the Federal Role in Privacy Protections Online: Revisiting federal regulations on data privacy to protect personal information without over-regulating internet businesses.
  438. Allowing Private Industry to Manage Federal Historic Sites: Leasing management of historic sites to private companies, provided they maintain the historical integrity of the site.
  439. Supporting States’ Rights to Set Abortion Laws: Allowing states full control over abortion regulations, with minimal federal intervention.
  440. Encouraging Schools to Incorporate Conservative Thinkers in Curricula: Promoting the inclusion of conservative thinkers and writers in school curricula to balance perspectives.
  441. Creating National Guidelines for Military Training in High Schools: Encouraging schools to offer military-style programs or JROTC options to build discipline and national pride.
  442. Reducing Federal Involvement in Public Housing Standards: Transferring authority over public housing standards to state and local governments.
  443. Expanding Protections for Religious Organizations in Hiring Practices: Allowing religious organizations greater freedom to hire in alignment with their beliefs.
  444. Encouraging Traditional Family Planning Education: Providing federal support for programs that emphasize abstinence and traditional family planning methods.
  445. Limiting Federal Control Over Digital Health Records: Restricting federal access to digital health records to protect patient privacy.
  446. Implementing National Standards for Election Integrity: Encouraging uniform standards for voting processes, such as voter ID, to enhance election security.
  447. Expanding Federal Penalties for Criminal Activity by Non-Citizens: Increasing sentencing guidelines for non-citizens who commit federal crimes, particularly related to drug trafficking and violent offenses.
  448. Supporting Parental Review of Public School Curricula: Mandating that all public school curricula be made available for parental review online.
  449. Allowing States to Use Federal Lands for Timber and Agriculture: Granting states more flexibility to use federal lands for agriculture, logging, or other economic activities.
  450. Promoting a National Civics Education Month: Establishing a month dedicated to civics education, encouraging schools to emphasize civic responsibility and patriotism.
  451. Increasing Funding for School Resource Officers Nationwide: Expanding grants to fund more security personnel in schools, enhancing safety and deterrence against school violence.
  452. Supporting Traditional Family Structures in Public Messaging: Encouraging federal agencies to promote public service announcements supporting traditional family values.
  453. Restricting Federal Support for Media Outlets Not Aligned with U.S. Interests: Proposing limitations on federal funds or contracts with media organizations seen as promoting anti-American sentiments.
  454. Creating State-Based Alternatives to Federal Social Security: Allowing states to establish supplemental retirement programs as alternatives or supplements to federal Social Security.
  455. Implementing a Federal Tax Credit for Volunteer First Responders: Offering tax incentives for individuals who serve as volunteer firefighters, EMTs, or other emergency personnel.
  456. Establishing Limits on Federal Student Loan Forgiveness Programs: Proposing restrictions on student loan forgiveness, emphasizing personal responsibility and private solutions.
  457. Encouraging Partnerships Between Private Schools and Public Institutions: Supporting collaboration between public schools and private institutions for shared educational resources.
  458. Mandating Federal Benefits for Veterans Based on Length of Service: Proposing benefits proportional to veterans’ service duration, to prioritize those with longer service.
  459. Promoting Patriotic Education in Federal Prisons: Offering education programs in prisons focused on American history, civics, and patriotism as part of inmate rehabilitation.
  460. Encouraging States to Take Control of Federal Parks within Their Borders: Supporting states in managing federal parks locally to improve conservation efforts aligned with state priorities.
  461. Expanding Eligibility for Charter School Programs: Encouraging states to open charter school programs to a broader range of students, including those from middle-income families.
  462. Supporting Military-Style Physical Fitness Requirements in Schools: Promoting state-level adoption of rigorous physical fitness standards based on military training.
  463. Allowing Local Governments More Control Over Water Rights: Granting local authorities greater oversight of water rights, reducing federal restrictions on water use.
  464. Providing Additional Federal Support for Small, Family-Owned Farms: Expanding subsidies and grants for small farms, aiming to reduce corporate dominance in agriculture.
  465. Encouraging Civics Competitions at National and State Levels: Promoting national and statewide civics competitions to increase youth engagement in understanding U.S. government.
  466. Proposing a National ‘Day of Service’ to Honor Military and First Responders: Designating a federal holiday focused on community service to honor those in service roles.
  467. Allowing Faith-Based Organizations to Administer More Federal Welfare Programs: Granting faith-based groups more authority to manage federal welfare funds and programs.
  468. Encouraging Federal Partnerships with Pro-American Media Outlets: Prioritizing contracts and partnerships with media that promote American values in public messaging.
  469. Reforming Federal Support for University Humanities Programs: Shifting funding from humanities programs that emphasize social justice to those focused on American history and literature.
  470. Creating Federal Guidelines for Religious Freedom in Schools: Establishing national guidelines protecting students’ rights to religious expression in public schools.
  471. Increasing Penalties for Vandalism of Federal Monuments and Buildings: Proposing strict penalties for individuals convicted of defacing or destroying federal property.
  472. Restricting Federal Funding for Organizations with Non-Traditional Family Policies: Limiting grants for nonprofits or companies that do not support traditional family values.
  473. Expanding Access to Health Savings Accounts (HSAs) Nationwide: Promoting HSAs with tax benefits, encouraging people to manage their health expenses independently.
  474. Creating State-Based Alternatives to Federal Unemployment Programs: Allowing states to establish their own unemployment programs that operate independently of federal guidelines.
  475. Increasing Federal Support for Technical and Vocational Programs: Redirecting funds to technical schools and vocational training as viable alternatives to four-year degrees.
  476. Promoting Local Autonomy in Law Enforcement Practices: Reducing federal mandates on local law enforcement practices, empowering communities to develop unique policing methods.
  477. Encouraging States to Increase Oversight of Family Court Systems: Supporting state reforms in family courts to prioritize traditional family arrangements in child custody cases.
  478. Creating Incentives for Businesses to Operate in Rural America: Offering tax breaks for companies that open offices or plants in rural areas to boost local economies.
  479. Providing Federal Funding for School Programs Focused on Career Readiness: Supporting programs that emphasize job skills and preparation for life after high school.
  480. Allowing Private Companies to Manage Renewable Energy Projects on Federal Lands: Leasing federal land for private renewable energy projects under state oversight.
  481. Promoting a Voluntary National Service Program: Encouraging a voluntary national service program for young adults, focused on community work and skill-building.
  482. Supporting State Control Over Drug Sentencing Laws: Allowing states to set their own drug sentencing standards, reducing federal oversight on nonviolent drug offenses.
  483. Reducing Federal Funding for Research on Climate Change Mitigation: Focusing resources on economic growth rather than funding climate adaptation or mitigation research.
  484. Expanding State-Based Control of Public Transportation Projects: Reducing federal funding for local transportation, encouraging states to invest in their own transit systems.
  485. Supporting Federal Protections for Police Officers in Civil Lawsuits: Limiting liability for officers sued in civil cases, emphasizing protections for law enforcement.
  486. Encouraging Faith-Based Adoption Services Nationwide: Expanding federal support for adoption agencies that operate based on religious principles.
  487. Mandating Transparency in Federal Grant Allocations to Nonprofits: Requiring public reporting of all federal grant allocations to nonprofit organizations.
  488. Creating Penalties for Public Institutions That Restrict Free Speech: Imposing fines on public universities that censor conservative speech or viewpoints.
  489. Allowing States to Reclaim Federal Education Funds for Local Use: Enabling states to redirect federal education funding as they see fit, with fewer federal stipulations.
  490. Encouraging Traditional Gender Roles in Public Media Campaigns: Promoting media campaigns that portray traditional gender roles in family and community settings.
  491. Supporting Enhanced Legal Penalties for Attacks on Law Enforcement: Increasing penalties for those convicted of assaulting or injuring police officers.
  492. Reducing Federal Standards for Workplace Safety in Low-Risk Jobs: Scaling back OSHA regulations in industries deemed low-risk to reduce compliance burdens.
  493. Incentivizing Businesses to Hire U.S. Veterans: Offering tax breaks to businesses that prioritize hiring veterans, especially in high-demand fields.
  494. Creating National Guidelines for Traditional Marriage Education Programs: Promoting programs that emphasize the societal value of marriage and family stability.
  495. Expanding Federal Support for Community-Led Crime Prevention: Funding initiatives that focus on community policing and local-led crime prevention programs.
  496. Requiring Federal Agencies to Use American-Made Products: Mandating that federal agencies purchase American-made goods and services to support U.S. businesses.
  497. Encouraging Family-Based Immigration Policies: Prioritizing immigration programs that support family reunification in line with traditional family values.
  498. Supporting State-Led Initiatives to Protect Religious Expression: Promoting state laws that safeguard religious practices in schools and workplaces.
  499. Establishing Federal Tax Incentives for Faith-Based Charities: Providing tax breaks for charitable donations to faith-based organizations that support social services.
  500. Creating Federal Guidelines for Patriotic Education in All Public Schools: Recommending a standardized curriculum focused on American history, civics, and patriotism in K-12 education.

 

About

About

Clay Boykin is a thought leader, author, speaker, and focuses on helping individuals discover their inner wisdom and purpose. With a background in personal development, leadership, and spiritual exploration, he guides others toward self-awareness and transformation. His passion for ancient wisdom, mandalas, and archetypes informs his work, offering a fresh perspective on finding balance in today’s world.

In his upcoming book, Clay explores uncoveringinner-patterns of wisdom to help readers live more fulfilling lives. His thought coaching practice empowers clients to connect with their authentic selves, unlocking potential through resilience, compassion, and leadership.

Clay is the author of Circles of Men and the founder of the Men’s Fellowship Network, which fosters gatherings for personal growth and raising awareness of compassion among men.

The authorship of “Circles of Men: A Counter-Intuitive Approach to Creating Men’s Groups” and the inception of the podcast “In Search of the New Compassionate Male” underscore Clay’s creative contributions. He also serves as the founder behind the Men’s Fellowship Network/Circles of Men Project, an initiative that orchestrates intimate gatherings of men worldwide to convene regularly and delve into personal growth while elevating awareness of compassion in the male context.

For a 20-minute discovery call or to set up a session please schedule on my Calendar: Book Me!

Ep 116: Julien Oomen on his soon to be released new album

Ep 116: Julien Oomen on his soon to be released new album

Julien Oomen is a Dutch/French, Amsterdam-based musician who draws inspiration from spiritual ceremonies and personal stories with their trapdoor to the universal. Julien is currently working on a long cherished project: For the first time he will be releasing an album with songs in the French language only. The album is a collaboration with his mother Marinette Oomen-Myin, who wrote the lyrics. Most of the songs have a double perspective throughout time, as Julien asked his mother to write new extra parts to poems she wrote when she was 20-22 years old. The album thus encompasses a time span of more than half a century.

To be released in spring 2023.

https://www.julienoomenmusic.com/

Life Story, Keepsake & Legacy Videos by Tadran Media Productions

Life Story, Keepsake & Legacy Videos by Tadran Media Productions

It takes a certain insight and experience when capturing the true essence of one’s life for your family, or telling your story to a broader audience, or creating a personal video resume.

For more than 40 years in TV and journalism, Dennis has excelled in drawing people out and helping them see their own grace and talent, and touch into their deep human experience.

Whether or not you have ever been interviewed or on camera, Dennis’ style is heart-centered and creates the kind of trust that enables people to bring out the best within themselves. – International C-Suite Executive

Dennis uses insight, experience, and expertise to elicit profound and powerful stories from individuals.  Dennis paints a portrait of the authentic person he is interviewing with his passion.  Having a video interview of a loved one is a timeless treasure.

Dennis has interviewed the greats and the unassuming.

What a friendly and engaging conversation. I have never been interviewed, and had no idea how much I enjoyed working with Dennis. He heard me, and he brought out the best in me for my family. – Cancer patient

Contact Dennis directly to get a custom quote based on your unique need.

 

EP115: Dennis Patrick Slattery on CG Jung, Mandalas, and the Field

EP115: Dennis Patrick Slattery on CG Jung, Mandalas, and the Field

Red Book Painting #2.pngDennis Patrick Slattery, Ph.D., is Distinguished Emeritus Professor in Mythological Studies at Pacifica Graduate Institute. In this episode Dennis and I have a deep and soulful conversation about his study of Carl Jung’s inner work in his creation of mandalas, Dennis’ own artistic study of Jung’s mandalas, and the creation and integration of mandalas in Clay Boykin‘s(my) personal and professional life.
 

Clay Boykin  00:09

Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay boykin.com for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate man. A few days ago, I had the opportunity to have a one on one conversation with our dear friend Dennis Slattery. You may recall Dennis is Professor Emeritus at Pacifica Graduate Institute, this podcast. This episode, we talked about mandalas. We talked about Carl Jung, we talked about Carl Jung’s art, the artwork that Dennis is doing, that’s complementary to Carl Jung’s art in his mandalas. And we explored how my model is fit into that picture. So let’s join that conversation in progress. Well, you know, we’ve been talking, you’ve been watching my mindless stuff, and you’ve been painting, what, 910 years?

 

Dennis Slattery  01:29

Or 11? Now, here’s, yeah, about 11 years.

 

Clay Boykin  01:33

And there’s some parallels that I wanted to explore.

 

Dennis Slattery  01:39

Okay,

 

Clay Boykin  01:41

you know, reading Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell, I’m getting, they’ll talk about, you know, Mondelez, they talk about quaternity. And the use of quaternity. The for you know, whether it’s north south east, west or earth, wind, fire and water, you know, but yeah, that four or quaternity is kind of the basic building block, if you will. And, and yet in a lot of Young’s modulo work, I don’t see quaternity. Express,

 

Dennis Slattery  02:26

like the one that I painted, that I think you have, it’s not even a circle, it’s like a, it’s like an egg shape. My version on the left and Young’s on the right. And he calls it an envelope. So I think I think there’s some latitude, if it I think the image is after any image of a meadow, capturing some imagination of wholeness in something’s complete. So I don’t I encourage you not to worry about having it. Literally, always in fourths, but I mean, a circle itself late is a mandolin. And you could fill it in and say, Well, this is part of my, my image of my own individuation pilgrimage here. But yeah, and I just was so attracted by this one. You and with my art teachers help, I knew I could do it. I was trying in this period, in which I did. Maybe seven, from the Red Book. And I had already or was in process of offering to read book. gatherings at true churches, New Mexico. I was just absorbed. I mean, the Red Book was like a vortex that pulled me really deeply into it. And I thought I wonder if I can touch even with a feather Young’s creative process by painting what he painted. So that was what was behind it. And you know, everything that I painted of his put me in such a calm, place, feeling centered, even while the challenges of each one would have been insurmountable had I not have this wonderful Linda Calvert Jacobson as my art teacher and every I remember, in one of these, we were working on it. And she just stepped back and said, Do you realize how complex this man’s imagination is? And I said, Well, I know that from his writing, but I’m listening to you closely about his imagery. And she said, these are, these are unbelievably sophisticated works of art. And she has the ability to see the layers. So we were the ones that I really wrestled with, we, you know, you always start in the back, and you start from the top down, and then you layer, you see what is on one layer, and then you layer other other parts of images, and layer it again. And you may have four or more layers. And that’s how it accumulates the texture that it has. And I wasn’t worried about xeroxing yo, in my painting. And in some of them. That complexity was such that I said to them that I’m going to skip the I’m going to skip that. I’m going to fill it in with a solid color. It’s it’s too much Young’s particular devotion to detail in in his paintings, and the Red Book is just phenomenal. The patience. And of course, he took art classes. Some were under the impression that he just kind of put it together. No, he had, I don’t know how many classes he took, but he had guidance. But he also had the images. And he just needed some technical assistance to get them down as he was imagining them. So the Red Book, chains union

 

Dennis Slattery  07:03

exploration to an uncanny degree, and then about, it’s been a few years now the six Black Books that he wrote in that then he compiled in the Red Book. And I’ve been tempted to buy the six or maybe $120. And I’m thinking, will I really read them? I think I’d rather go back and reread the Red Book, then start on the black book. But people that have read the black book, say they’re they’re phenomenal. It’s like his thinking in a germinal for them that gains the maturity in the Red Book.

 

Clay Boykin  07:47

Let me ask you a question. In these two inches side by side, what is on the right is from the is the Red Book. Exactly. Yes. And then on the left is your framed. It’s your study of Young’s. Yes. Mondala.

 

Dennis Slattery  08:11

Okay, yes.

 

Clay Boykin  08:12

I want to I’m trying to get to a place. What was it that you said that when you were painting it that you had this sense of peace?

 

Dennis Slattery  08:27

Well, I find that often in my painting, but it was particularly rich with you, because other painters works that I’ve painted. I didn’t know much about them. I wasn’t even sure what, what if anything, they wrote. But I’ve been reading yoga since 1968 1969. And often without comprehension, but I just pushed through. And now and then as the years went on, he got a sense of the patterns of his psyche, how he works, how analogy works. So I’ve never painted any painters work. From who, for whom I’ve read this much that he wrote, and I think that put me in a different constellation clay because I had the literary background. And I was able to think about mandalas as I painted them, and I read the Red Book twice, and then the readers edition once, I think, and of course, the readers edition. Isn’t the size of a Volkswagen, like the Red Book, the full one. But there’s no that’s it. And it’s beautifully done. No images.

 

Clay Boykin  09:53

Yeah, no color. They’re just a few images in the back and yes, black and white. Yes, that’s right. But no, it doesn’t.

 

Dennis Slattery  10:05

You have that one that you just looked at, which is his Mandela. That one? I think that was his first. I think you’re right. And I just want to tell you the story about that, because in one of the trips that Pacifica put together, to visit Young’s home, and I remember sitting next to Rick tarnis, we were in separate chairs, and both of us, we’re holding one side of that first medal and the original. And Yun said something like, this is my first attempt at a mandolin. I don’t know what it means.

 

Clay Boykin  10:52

You know, I just came across something that was speaking about young that he had painted these models as he went through this phase. But it wasn’t until years later, that he came back and put the pieces together of oh, that’s what I was doing back then.

 

Dennis Slattery  11:14

You know, and that great? Well, and it

 

Clay Boykin  11:17

stunned me, because you and I’ve talked before, you know, most of my life, I’ve been drawing things, circles and quadrants and even doing it in business. Yes, just the quadrants, you know, an amount can be a circle and a square, just a square, you know, some combination of those. Yes. And I was doing this instinctively for business purposes, to take a whole topic and then break it out, and then put it all into context. Yes. When I first read Joseph Campbell’s talking about a model of being, you know, the ability to put all the scattered aspects of one’s life into context for the universe, yes, order with the universe. In this form. I thought, Oh, my God, all these years, I’ve been drawing mandalas. I didn’t know that’s what it was.

 

Dennis Slattery  12:13

And there, they were, right out of your unconscious

 

Clay Boykin  12:17

out of my unconscious instinctively. And you talk about the piece, every time that I would get to this place where all these different pieces fit into context, that last piece would go in there. And this audible, the size, oh, at this moment in time, everything that’s on my mind in the universe is in order.

 

Dennis Slattery  12:43

For this small, I’m completely with you. And you remind me, and I’m going to send this to you. It’s five pages. It’s Toni Morrison, speaking about her creative process, and it’s entitled memory creation, writing. And the reason I’m going to send it to you, I think you’ll enjoy the whole thing. But what she says about how memory works through bits and pieces. And bits and pieces start to accumulate into parts. And parts start to accumulate into something whole. And she says it, this won’t spoil it, that when she was researching one of her works. She knew she had to stop reading about this historical incident. Because if she didn’t, you’d never be able to write about it. In other words, you can load bits and pieces up to the point and I’ve had dissertation students have this happen to them more than one. They research to the point that they fall into paralysis, intimidation, I’m so loaded with other people’s ideas. I can’t find any of my own anymore. And so I’ve always wanted to write a piece in academia, about the dangers of over researching, which is a kind of overreaching of your topic that winds up creating writer’s block writer’s paralysis, frustration. So there’s a real lesson here about leaving gaps. I will places to breathe

 

Clay Boykin  14:45

  1. Oh, yeah. I so appreciate what you’re saying. And I have to confess I’m kind of going through a little bit of that paralysis right now. I mean, you know, this past year or so every time I turn around, there’s another books.

 

Dennis Slattery  15:02

You told those people to stop doing that? Guilty.

 

Clay Boykin  15:08

Yeah, guilty. I tell you what, every book that you’ve that you’ve given me or pointed me to, then fascinating and good. With time I’ll be able to really sink deeply into, but I wanted to go go to a point that I knew about Carl Jung. I knew everybody would say well Oh, study his mindless and consciously I say, Yeah, I want to do that. But subconsciously or inside me. I said, No, I don’t want to go learn about his stuff. I don’t want to be on his path. I don’t want to go replicating it. I need to go discover this myself. I’ve gotten to this place. I’ve got to go further. Yep. And really understand what it is that I’ve got. Yes. And tell you it was in your book, that quote that I just sent to you. The other day?

 

Dennis Slattery  16:12

That was obscure order, I think. Yes. Because I went back to it. ftu. Senate.

 

Clay Boykin  16:20

Yeah, it was in at the very beginning of chapter two. And I’m going to paraphrase,

 

Dennis Slattery  16:32

Yeah, correct. No. I’m just gonna listen. In essence, what

 

Clay Boykin  16:37

you were telling me was are saying and there was Carl Jung didn’t write into his work for it to be the stagnant Opus, that was just fixed. He wrote into what he did such that it can be handed off and then further developed. That’s it. That’s right. And so for us to rehash just this what you know, Karlstrom Ian’s work rehash it and not extended. is is uh, it’s falling short of what his desires were. Exactly right. And so what that paragraph did right there for me, Dennis was, it said it was okay for me not to study him until I knew more about myself. And now it’s a path that I can now i Okay, now, I’ve gotten enough. The essence of what I’m doing in the bigger, you know, like Howard Tice said to me, says clay your mandala? What you’re drawing there. You don’t know what you’re doing. Yeah. Well, thanks a lot. No, I would say bravo. What you’re doing is bigger than what you really understand. Yeah. Right. And pieces of it had gotten to a place where Okay, now I can bridge to young insight. Okay, now, what was he doing? And every step along the way so far, this unfolding for him? It’s been, what’s been happening for me is, it’s it’s fascinating. It’s humbling. It’s sobering. Your it was that paragraph in your book? That that really helped me turn the corner on that. That’s great. I’m so happy to hear that. Yeah. And that’s the right approach. Because, you know,

 

Dennis Slattery  18:40

God bless scholars struggling to get a dissertation done. And, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve written in the margins of a student’s work, let’s say, a final paper on Moby Dick. And they’ve gone to Ed injures volume, the American Nicaea and on Moby Dick, and they start quoting, Edgar, and then they quote him again. And I draw a line I say, Stop. I don’t have a clue what you think. So stop folding him. And let me hear from you. And part of it’s part of its intimidation part of it. So I don’t I I don’t have anything to say about this. And a part of it’s a feeling of inadequacy, but I would tell them, Look, you know, you’ve come this far, you’ve earned the authority to say what you believe, and if it’s wrong, let’s not worry about that right now. But they, they want to go to the nest. And I’m trying to kick them out of the nest so they can try to fly a little But on their own, they may, they may crash land, but they’ll get up. Wow. You know, it’s anyhow, I share that with you because I saw that over 3025 years of working with dissertation students.

 

Clay Boykin  20:16

Well, I get snagged that way. It’s like, Oh, my God, what he said was so perfect. How can I say it better? Yeah. But you took it to another step. It’s not how do you say it better? But what thought does that bring in your mind? That’s it? Where does your mind go? When you read this? Not Have you restate it? No, bingo. Don’t really state but but where does it take you?

 

Dennis Slattery  20:45

Yeah. Okay. Because then you’re actively engaged in the process. The other way, it’s, it’s data processing. Jung said it now push the data along. So one of the things I’ll say about dissertation students, who also showed her Oh, my gosh, remarkable advances forward, they really came into their own. And for many, I would say, and other colleagues of mine would say, you know, you really have tapped the voice of your own authority. I never heard this in your papers. But over this epic enterprise of the dissertation, you’ve done it. So one of the hang ups, or question areas that was often asked about is, what should I say in the conclusion? Should I summarize what I’ve said in 230 pages? And my response was no, because I’ve already read it. So I don’t want to reread it in microform. I see just answered answer this question. You come to the last chapter. Boom. Next thing is conclusion. Answer this question. So what? So what you’ve written to it and 30 pages? So what why should I care? I love that. Whoa. And I said, and keep your keep your conclusion to five pages? And answer the question, so what? Wow, once it was framed that way, then they say, well, here’s some implications of this theory, or this work, or whatever it was. And I could see this being used in business or I could see this being used in undergraduate classroom, whatever. But they needed to be given permission to say what they’ve been thinking about. And step out of the paralysis of this academic. This academic mindset, that doesn’t allow them sometimes to feel like they can be the human being they are. Well, you know, it’s a trap.

 

Clay Boykin  23:07

What you’re saying is so empowering. It’s so empowering. You know, two things, one. Take his work or any work in them go to the next place. Where does it take you? Yes. And then after you’ve gone there, so what? Yes. And it’s not so what in a sarcastic fashion at all? No, it’s so well. So what’s next? So what’s next? You know? And then you Yeah, I want to go back. I want to come back to this to your study of, of, of Young’s modulus. What was was the piece that you were feeling? Whereas was it like, Okay, this side represents something in his mandala, and this side represents something? No, I’m seeing that. I’m seeing some beautiful art. And I’m seeing the quaternity the the four, yeah. But I see no definitions of anything or, or symbols that I can relate to.

 

Dennis Slattery  24:25

Yeah, and in painting him his work. I cried to enter what the Greeks called My nesis. In other words, Carl, you’ve you’ve you’ve crafted this beautiful Mendola that I want to enter into, physically and embodied by painting it or my version of it. And it’s not going to be a Xerox some of them are closer than others. But I want to feel into what you felt, if it’s even possible. This is, but this is my act of imagination, taking the painting. I want to see if I can feel what you felt when you created it. And, you know, did I ever hit the mark? It doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t matter. That was the blueprint. You hit your mark. I hit my mark. Yeah. So Carl, you gave me the map. But I took I went into the territory, that the map, which is your painting laid out, but my experience is not going to be yours. Although I sense if the unconscious is also engaged, which it was in every one of his paintings, which is in everything that I’ve ever written, my unconscious is always there. But I don’t want to draw a line and say, this is conscious, this is unconscious, I just want to have the whole experience. So when I looked at it like that, that I’m creating an imitation as he was, you know, his paintings are imitations of his own personal myth, collective myth, historical myth. And it’s okay, if I tap that in the tiniest way. And I’ll be happy with whatever happens, even if nothing happens, which never occurred? Well, things always happen.

 

Clay Boykin  26:47

And I would submit that you’re using the word invitation. What comes to mind is if you’re doing a study of his work, you’re doing this study.

 

Dennis Slattery  27:00

Fair enough.

 

Clay Boykin  27:01

Not, you’re not there to copy it. No, this isn’t a copy. No, this is a study. It’s what comes in what is translating into you and then flowing out onto that Canvas through the lens that you’re seeing the world? Yes. And so it may execute radically different if you put them side by side as copies. Yes. But no. Yes. Your interpretation. It’s your study. It’s your interpretation of him.

 

Dennis Slattery  27:35

Exactly. Right. What he was he was giving form to his interior world. I think I was giving something of my form of in the painting, by means of my interior world, mingling with his. Now that was my fantasy. And you know, it’s okay that it’s a fantasy. It has failed. It has value.

 

Clay Boykin  28:01

Yeah, it. What’s coming up for me is urine motion.

 

Dennis Slattery  28:09

With motion? Yes.

 

Clay Boykin  28:10

You’re in motion? Yeah. Emotion motion? Yes. You’re in motion. Rather than being stuck or frozen. This this, he’s helping you propel yourself forward? Yes. If it were any other mandala. Some pick some random person’s beautiful mandala that they’ve drawn. Do you think that you would go to the same place? Not

 

Dennis Slattery  28:39

interesting question. No, it’s it’s a really good question. I don’t know. But I think there are universal principles that are being expressed aesthetically, emotionally and psychologically, that when you enter them I don’t have to be a Sufi to read Sufi poetry. And I bring that up because I found a hardback volume of Sufi poetry on a shelf this morning, I thought, What did I buy this, I’m going to bring it into my study and read, but I know that I’m going to be able to enter that Sufi imagination being a Western citizen, because the the poetry will tap these universal constructs that you you know, read popularized as the archetypal realm. And this they the archetypes come out of the unconscious. So that’s what we all share. And if I knew I used to read Spanish poetry in Spanish because at one point I hit a pretty good facility with finish. But it’s always interesting to to read poetry or literature in a language other than your own. And I wish I had that facility. Campbell had a gift for as a philologist for learning languages. You know,

 

Clay Boykin  30:23

it’s interesting point because I think I was in fifth grade. fifth or sixth grade, when I became an altar boy.

 

Dennis Slattery  30:35

What did you I was too, okay.

 

Clay Boykin  30:39

And at that time, we were still doing the maths in Latin

 

Dennis Slattery  30:44

Latin. Yes.

 

Clay Boykin  30:47

So here I was a fifth or sixth grader. speaking Latin.

 

Dennis Slattery  30:53

Yes. Yeah.

 

Clay Boykin  30:57

phonetically. I mean, I didn’t know a word I was saying. Yeah. You know, I could go and read the translation. But as I was reading it, I, you know, I didn’t know any other words. But I remember there being a feeling. Yes, sense of flow and depth, even as a little kid like that. Yes. I have to say spiritual now. But back then it was magic.

 

Dennis Slattery  31:25

It was magic, ya know, and I experienced that too, as an older boy for four years. And I love the fact that I didn’t know what I was saying. Because it allowed I know, looking back and thinking about, I felt I was able to enter the ritual of the mass by reciting, and then the rhythm and the texture and the sound without knowing the meaning. It just, it just, it elevated something in me, and really elevated the mystery of the mass.

 

Clay Boykin  32:02

Yes, mystery in the mysticism. Yes. So powerful. And it’s hitting me that some of the mystery, you know, when we translated it into English, just using the, the Latin English and the calf, yes. We translated it into English. I remember. Mother, who? A tie in Cecilia, okay. I remember her saying that. She felt like we’ve lost something when we went to English. And I’m thinking, well, but now we can understand what we’re saying. Yeah. She said, No, but we’ve lost something. She’s right. And we’ve lost we’ve we’ve lost the mystery. By Gothic English, we’ve lost in depth of mystery we may be able to intellectually understand. Yes. But if it doesn’t touch the heart the same way.

 

Dennis Slattery  33:08

No. And the Latin was, was a global, regardless of what language you spoke, in your, in your history in your culture. It was a shared common experience that the mass was inlet. And I can remember the kickbacks, I can’t remember the year that it went to English for us. But I remember the disappointment in so many people, because something of that long heritage of the church was pitched in favor of popular ism, making it more relevant, which was all nonsense, I believe. And the other thing that I think worked on people negatively, was when the priest turn and began to save the mask from the other side of the altar, looking out at us, rather than how we would look at his back for all those years as he ritualized the mass and the sacramental quality of it. He the priest loss, something of that. I don’t know, shamanic presence or, you know, vested presence. And then what flipped millions out was when they started using guitars at mass, and I know people that said, I’m done. I’m done with the church.

 

Clay Boykin  34:49

You know, it’s interesting, so fascinating. First year, I never thought about the priest turning and facing and where my mind immediately went was when he was when we were all facing behind him and he was he’s facing the altar. It’s almost like he’s kind of leading us there. Yes, exactly. When he turns to us now he’s preaching at us.

 

Dennis Slattery  35:15

Yes. And it’s, you know, I know we’d be, we’d be buddies. Yeah. Yeah. It popularized it and bled something sacred out of it. At the same time.

 

Clay Boykin  35:33

Yeah. And comment about the guitar. I can vividly remember because they invited me to come play guitar.

 

Dennis Slattery  35:43

Oh, okay.

 

Clay Boykin  35:47

And so, I remember sitting up there in front, playing an instrumental. And one piece was Simon and Garfunkel and other was rolling stones?

 

Dennis Slattery  36:04

Oh, wow. Great.

 

Clay Boykin  36:06

It was a beautiful. Okay. Yeah. But just instrumental, it but I remember sitting there thinking, what am I doing sitting up here playing Rolling Stones? And inside Onkel? Because it sounds pretty. Yeah. In the midst of this mass.

 

Dennis Slattery  36:27

Yeah. And, you know, the migration from the sacred to the secular happened in those installments. From my perspective, you know, others were happy. Oh, god, get rid of that Latin. I never understood it. I think that was part of the point that you didn’t understand it, which then allowed it to maintain a certain mystery. Yes, about it without alienating us. I mean, I think maybe some took it personally. And said, Well, why can’t we just have it in English? And I think that was answered for them when it went to English. And it was a palpable feeling of something. Now missing.

 

Clay Boykin  37:14

Yeah. It was we rationalized. Or for rationalizes, right word. We lost something.

 

Dennis Slattery  37:27

Yeah. In the, in the, in the, in this spirit of modernity is keep it up to date, let the past go all of these psychological principles that we get burned into us. All that was back there. Oh, in the Middle Ages, you know what they thought I mean, so to, to modernize spirituality, in that way. Was to, for me, put the word religion in lowercase r and the uppercase are gone.

 

Clay Boykin  38:11

You know, that really resonates. And what comes to mind is that it was I think a bit of it was simplification so we can understand. That takes me to something I read this last year sometime. The point was made that simplification is the first step towards ignorance.

 

Dennis Slattery  38:44

Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To simplify. We could also use a less kind phrase. Dumb it down. I was gonna say, Yeah, dumb it down. Yeah. So it’s the, you know, the new maths for dummies in the series. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And somehow that’s a virtue. See, that’s the part that I find most astonishing, that this was all in the service. And, you know, I don’t know numbers. But I wonder if a decreasing parish population brought the church to a place where we’ve got to upgrade and upbeat, this whole experience, or there’s going to be nobody coming massed. Now, I don’t know. But I would want to, it would be interesting to explore the population growth or decrease when all of these were executed. Was it Was it through the Second Vatican Council which was 1960 63. With Pope John officiating? Was it that Vatican Council that brought this on? I am asking this question, because I don’t know the history.

 

Clay Boykin  40:19

But I think we were moving out of Latin. I would have been 65. Probably 65. For

 

Dennis Slattery  40:35

  1. Okay.

 

Clay Boykin  40:37

So we’re in the right decade.

 

Dennis Slattery  40:39

It’s Yes, it’s in. Yeah. I think the church was in an upgrade movement at that council. I may Google that second Vatican council, later today, or probably tomorrow morning. And just to serve, when when did the when did the mass shift to the vernacular of whatever people it was being presented to? Yeah, and see something universal. I’m repeating myself, I know. But something universal dropped out. The sacraments themselves are, of course, universally intact. But something in the in the language of the prayers themselves last that universality.

 

Clay Boykin  41:38

I want to add on to that. Again, I’m reading so many different things. I don’t remember where this came from. You took a new prorate, remember that this movement, let’s call it simplification or moving just to English, losing the the the mystery and losing the mysticism. Some ways turn the west towards the east. And into the mid to the mystical in the symbolism and everything that we would find in the Eastern traditions. Yes, because we couldn’t understand it like this the symbols or even though the letters. Yes. The different you know. We entered then into this, this this realm of not knowing but feeling it, it took us back into this place. Yes, that that’s part of the popular because for me, personally, I’m seeking I’m seeking I’m seeking. And once I get it figured out, I want to go the next place. I want to stay in this space of not knowing but discovering.

 

Dennis Slattery  42:54

Yes. Nice. Now, that’s a great way to say it. Yeah. Instead of getting comfortable in these tribal pockets that we’re so locked into today, and we see how divisive and destructive that is turf protecting which which is the perfect breeding ground for ideologies, and then conversation ceases. Right? And then and then it just ferments and becomes more tankless and people become more cantankerous towards one another. It’s really a vicious plotline

 

Clay Boykin  43:38

in your workshop that we did there in Santa Fe. Yeah. Wonderful, great writing experience writing our own myth, what a great circle of people we had.

 

Dennis Slattery  43:50

Oh, that was one of a kind. It was one of the kind.

 

Clay Boykin  43:56

And I remember towards the end, somebody was talking about we are we were talking about polarization. Or the hard left the hard, right. And somebody said, Yeah, but we’re in those positions in what we’re not realizing is that we’re illuminating the other. We’re, it’s almost like I’m shining. We’re shining a light on one another. Yeah. I try to remember the essence of the point that was being made not to go back to my notes.

 

Dennis Slattery  44:34

Yeah, I mean, okay, I’m gonna I’m gonna get that some more. Yeah, I thought,

 

Clay Boykin  44:40

here’s something I want to I’m gonna go. I’m gonna go back to your modular painting. Do you find yourself when you begin to paint feeling sleepy Just how do I know this? When I got this book in my hand, just for example, okay. Yeah, I sat with it. And it was almost like putting it in my lap. There was a sigh. Like, okay, I found it. i Okay, I know this is, you know, this isn’t somebody talking about somebody talking about somebody? No, this is the satellites. Yeah, I found the original text, or the original document. Yes. And as soon as I begin to read, it’s like I fall asleep. Oh, okay. And it’s different than falling asleep, because you’re tired of reading? It’s, there’s something maybe there’s a release of us have a level of tension. Right? Not knowing now I know. There’s that Yes. You know, and, and now we want to savor it. You know, and I find myself. Even in your books, I find myself going back and reading a chapter over and over and over again. Because it feels good. There’s something that’s being communicated, in essence, it’s beyond intellectual.

 

Dennis Slattery  46:25

It’s beyond the intellectual, it’s deeper. It’s deeper. And each time I know this happens to you, it happens to me that, you know, I never got tired of teaching the Odyssey, Moby Dick. And beloved, I did that for 2020 years. And people would say, Well, why don’t you change them up? And I said, No, because they speak so well do each other. I’m not going to mess up this constellation of these psychic and mythic fields. But then I started teaching the Divine Comedy, and devoted the entire course to you know, that epic, but I didn’t want to miss with the way these three epics are always in conversation with each other. And it really shows when I read the final papers, from students in the epic imagination. They’re among some of the best writing I got from students, because they entered as a fourth in that tripartite conversation and there’s your mandolin. Yep. There’s, there’s the four parts. And they knew something was happening in them. Not necessarily through any one of the works, although many would inflict their paper onto one more than the other two, which was perfectly fine, because that one really spoke to them. But I wanted them to write an inter textual final paper. Find some threads that you can at least mention. You don’t have to develop them, but show that you’re thinking in this polyvalent way. Yeah, and then we’re up to the task. I mean, they did really well.

 

Clay Boykin  48:25

This just blows me away. Because you touched on something that I’ve not realized. So many times, if I’m reading one book, I’m reading Young. I’ve got to be reading it and you’re over here in Slattery. I gotta three books going? Good. That’s great. I have to have three books going because I’m the fourth. You’re the fourth. And that’s it. All eternity. I never ever dawned on me until just this moment.

 

Dennis Slattery  49:01

And not nor on me. As I was saying, it came into my head. Wait a minute, the student handing the paper in is the fourth. Forming the mendillo from the three. Yo, oh, my here we here. We’ve come back to it. And now both of us have another experiential dimension. To to it. Yeah, there’s,

 

Clay Boykin  49:33

yeah. It’s a point to savor, isn’t it?

 

Dennis Slattery  49:39

You know, when I’m rereading parts of Moby Dick to prepare a talk for Dallas at the end of July, and my gosh, Ishmael, is citing history, philosophy. They’ll cite Dante, Conte, you know, his Melville published did when he was 32 Has this massive encyclopedic library library in his head? And he’s always making. He’s always weaving, weaving, weaving, weaving. And it’s magnificent to read, and then see what we’ve, your eye as readers of Moby Dick can add to it. Yeah. And I think that’s the point of the of that epic. Yeah,

 

Clay Boykin  50:31

yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s been fascinating. I know, you’re, we’re coming up on time. But what you’ve helped me do in this short period is, is begin to take the methodology that instinctively has come up for me, that’s I learned was a mandala is learned about quaternity. And learning about the depths of that in the way that I express it. And then how you’ve experienced it with the young. They’re complementary experiences. They are and in there’s this Yes. spacing between the two that I’m working to bridge over to your experience. Yes, you know, or at a young experience, and what you’re helping me do is, is kind of understand it, because I would other people are drawing these models that are geometric and so forth. And they’re pretty beautiful words. Yeah. Yeah. Are they getting? We’re all getting our own thing from it. But am I even saying ballpark is where they are, in what they’re experiencing by by doing their design versus how my approach is where I’m taking words and symbols and putting them in spatial relationship to one another within the eternity. So the meaning, you know, this symbol next to this symbol has a different meaning in between, then if those symbols were this way, or if they were this way? Yes. And that’s playing with?

 

Dennis Slattery  52:22

Yes.

 

Clay Boykin  52:24

God, please. No, no, you go ahead. Well, what I’m in but what I’m what you’re experiencing and approaching it from a from a fascinating direction that that I want to spend more time considering. Yeah, it’s not this or but it’s, it’s a yes. And, and I think it may help me bring my mom to work on next step.

 

Dennis Slattery  52:51

Yeah. And, you know, Clay, this conversation has been so wonderful. And the whole time I look at I’m looking at you, and it’s your magnificent Mondello behind. I mean, what a background for this conversation. Oh, my gosh,

 

Clay Boykin  53:06

I got to share this with you. You know, I draw it. And it changes every time I start a new journal, right? Yes. Well, okay. It was at your it was it was at the workshop in Santa Fe. And I think I shared this with you that I finished this

 

Dennis Slattery  53:29

one. Yes, I know. Look at that. I can’t believe you finished it. And where are you finished it?

 

Clay Boykin  53:39

It had some pieces, some spaces. That just wasn’t coming to me. And just being in the session? Yes. Wasn’t anything specific? Oh, this piece was gonna go right here. No, but it was brought back up into me things that belonged here. It allowed me to access that. Yes. And it happened very quickly. Yes. Here’s the rest of the story. Okay, finished. I filled up this book. And now

 

Dennis Slattery  54:15

oh, I can see it. Yes, I’m wrong. Wow. Well, you you validate or you witness what you just said the power of entering the field. And when I teach and when I do these writing retreats or whatever it is, my attitude contributes to how much people feel. They can enter the field and when they enter it, and they feel the energy of others who are already in the field or in process. I think everybody’s imagination is ramped up. I’d love it when somebody would say that the hotel Santa Fe, oh, I wasn’t going to read. But I think I have to read this. I mean, there’s the field in fighting them, you have a voice to add it to the field, you don’t know who might be affected in in a deep way. And then we’d hear the conversations, and you were part of them. Where people would say, what you read. And you’ve said it to me here a couple of times already, what you wrote or what you’ve said, entered my field. And now there’s a piece that is there. That wasn’t before. I mean, for me, that’s the whole. That’s where all the juice is. Yeah.

 

Clay Boykin  56:01

There’s a point about Santa Fe, that I’m just now realizing is that we had another common element that was affecting us all in different ways. And that was the altitude. Yes, we are. It’s 72 has been huge. In You and I both felt it. Oh, boy. And when you started our session or workshop, I want to call it a retreat is more retreat

 

Dennis Slattery  56:39

that really it was it? Yeah, I liked that word better, also.

 

Clay Boykin  56:44

And when we started, and you commented, you know, say, you know, the altitude is kind of got me here a little bit. I remember mentally leaning in just a little bit more when you said that. And think the nature of the circle that we had assembled that you’d brought together. Everybody leaned down a little bit. And I think it was because there was that element. I know personally, I was like wanting to lift you up, like, you know, you’ve got this. Yeah, I think there was another connection that we made amongst the circle. Read, it wasn’t you standing up? And and you don’t do that anyway. But it’s not an instructor up there. No, we were all on Common Ground. You know, and learning from one another at your guidance,

 

Dennis Slattery  57:48

you know, and that was I mean, what was the one of the elements that I love about that? Is that I’m learning to? Yeah, because I’m incorporated into what’s going on? Not controlling it.

 

Clay Boykin  58:03

That’s what’s engaging, because you would express that when you when you’re learning something. It was, it was a shared learning.

 

Dennis Slattery  58:16

Yes.

 

Clay Boykin  58:20

Another level of connection that you achieve and in that retreat,

 

Dennis Slattery  58:27

well, I’m just thankful that you with a little prodding from your wonderful wife showed up, it was so great to have you as part of it. And I was so happy for you to meet a number of people that have been in my life as students as teacher, Barbara, child, and Tony and no, it was just it was fabulous. You were meant to be there. I hope you feel that. I’m sure you do.

 

Clay Boykin  58:58

I do. Thank you. Well, I’d like to continue. Well, I’m gonna we can let this kind of soak in and let me savor it a bit, then I’ll be ready for another round. And yeah, like I

 

Dennis Slattery  59:14

always enjoy it. Time with you because we don’t Xerox one another, but we’re both in the same field. And then we we open that field up I think for one another, which is the one of the great treasures of convert real conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, brother.

 

Clay  59:34

All right. Take care. Love you clay. We’ll talk soon. Bye bye. Bye. Check out the latest episode

EP 114: Howard Teich on Alchemy In Today’s World

EP 114: Howard Teich on Alchemy In Today’s World

Alchemy from a depth-psychology perspective has much to say about personal growth, metaphysics, spiritual transformation, and the individuation process. In this podcast episode, Howard Teich adds dimension and texture to this fascinating topic and touches into the relationship between Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung; comparing and contrasting their work.  Alchemy is a word heard more and more often yet its meaning is mostly lost. Alchemy conjures vague mental pictures of robed men stirring large vats of bubbling water, apprentices cranking spigots to keep the fires burning. Half witch, half wizard, a definitely crazed scientist from sometime in the middle ages is the commonly held understanding. Recently the word is heard more often to indicate some kind of transformational shift that has taken place or is about to take place. The nightly news, for instance, might say casually “what’s needed now is an alchemy of change in the House and Senate.” And, on a personal basis, relates to one finding their path in life toward creating their greatest contribution to the world… their magnum opus.

 

Guest – Howard Teich
Creator/Host – Clay Boykin
Co-Host – Dennis TardanTardan Media Network 

TRANSCRIPT:

Howard Teich 00:07
They were projecting their psyche into matter. And it’s that projection. And the fact that the alchemist use nature as a metaphor system, they didn’t make a difference between spirit and matter. I’m like what started happening was science and certainly what the church and all of the philosophical traditions which had God were some something in there, and so the alchemists were looking below the surface and projected so what Jung points out is that they were finding psychological gold

Clay Boykin 00:50
Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay boykin.com for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male

Dennis Tardan 01:14
hello world it’s me Dennis and Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. I’m done a start on I’m co hosting this episode with the founder of the new compassionate male and in search of clay Boykin. Hey, Clay.

Clay Boykin 01:30
Hi, Dennis, what a great afternoon we have coming back with us. I think now for the third time we’ve been together several times is Howard typisch. My dear friend, thank you.

Dennis Tardan 01:42
Brilliant, brilliant Howard. What a difference you’ve made in my in my life, Howard, how I look at how I look at the world differently. Honor and lunar have come into my life how have actually had a paradigm shift and my perceptions of the world through your work. And when you’re doing honor. And I understand today that we’re you’re getting a chance to to help me especially clay has had much you’ve had a much deeper understanding and work in alchemy than i

Clay Boykin 02:13
Well, yeah. But barely scratching the surface. And thanks to Howard, I’ve got a little bit more appreciation. But yeah, you’re right.

Howard Teich 02:22
Me too. I only have a little appreciation of the depth of this imagery and this architecture that has been around really, maybe from the beginning of carrying the fire. And certainly through Egypt, and particularly in the Middle Ages, which is what young made a big Carl Jung made a big discovery of power and that I think the future of his recognition is going to come from his having discovered alchemy and the collective unconscious mind. All came from his work later on in his life in discovering alchemy.

Clay Boykin 03:04
And was alchemy. I just want to kind of set the stage. So please alchemy is is ancient by name, I mean, going back into the Egyptian times and earlier, is that correct? I mean, they actually use the term

Howard Teich 03:20
I believe so the translation,

Dennis Tardan 03:24
but how and how it came through the ages when I went when I was growing up in this when I heard the word alchemy, they basically said we’re turning lead into gold. And that was it was a process to get rich. That was that was the this was the depth of my understanding, which is only an inch deep. It’s much more complex and much more interesting than that. So could you give from me from from an ignorant perspective to how would you tell me about this so that I could understand it at a deeper level as to exactly what’s going on here?

Howard Teich 04:04
Well, I think that metaphor system came about because the alchemists were really a concept of quantum physicists, of that time trying to figure out what spirit and matter were knowing there was something in matter that they were searching for. And, and because they didn’t understand what was there. As Jung brilliantly points out, they were projecting their psyche into matter. And it’s that projection. And the fact that the alchemists used nature as a metaphor system that didn’t make a difference between spirit and matter, unlike what started happening was science and certainly with the church and all of the philosophical tradition. which had God were some something in there. And so the alchemists were looking below the surface, and projected. So what Jung points out is that they were finding psychological gold. But because they didn’t have the ego development that we now have, they didn’t realize that. And so they actually thought it was matter. And it was the pre chemistry. That is pretty much when alchemy died as a as a as a metaphor system, about 1600s, although Newton was an alchemist, and deeply has a lot of his journals, up and translated, but essentially what Jung pointed out, is that the alchemists were unconscious of their projections in the matter. And so because they didn’t have the modern ego, you get to take a look at the unconscious, the collective unconscious and their imagery.

Dennis Tardan 06:06
So how did you become interested in alchemy? How did that how did that battle fire in you?

Howard Teich 06:14
In my complicated years of when I became a psychologist, and got attracted to dreams, and I thought the the only person I really understood was young. And I had no idea what I was getting myself into. So I began to read Jung was in Jungian analysis with some of the world’s most interesting new hands in the Bay Area when I was living there. And I kept seeing that Jung at some point, I began to talk about alchemy. And I knew there was something hidden there. And, and so I began to do what I could to understand. Particularly his work, I mostly stayed with his work. And began to read the three or four volumes that he produced towards the end of his life. And I knew there was something there and it took me years and years to get the thing that you mentioned, which is the lunar masculine. That came because the alchemists were mostly men. And so most of it was the male psyche, as it turned out, and in Young’s last night, in his last great work called mysterium, can Yun Tian us the mystery of separation, and synthesis, in psychic alchemy? There were some pictures that were I thought weird. They were in his other book on alchemy that was actually from quantum physicist Wolfgang Pauli, his dreams, it was just loaded with all the classic alchemical imagery. But in that book, there were only a few. And there was a sequence that had these two men and one body with two heads. And there were three or four of them that were there. And I couldn’t figure out the weirdness of the pictures. And I could figure out the what they might mean. And because in that particular volume, they were printed in black and white. At one point after trying to understand them, I realized that the alchemy plates were in color, because they saw the colors, his transformation, energy transformation. And so I realized that in that volume, the pictures had descriptions and colors. So I took some markers on like me, I began to color them in. And at that point, I had begun to study deeply. What was this unusual part of male mythology that I had read about from Joseph Campbell’s work as original work call where the two came to their father, which was from the Navajo sand paintings, a series of sand paintings, that he read the story and told his commentary on this twin hero mythology. And I had never heard of this twin hero mythology. I’d been pretty much steeped in the hero with 1000 cases in that part of Campbell’s work. And Campbell wrote this major blog major commentary five years before He wrote here with 1000 faces. And he really didn’t return to it. But stayed with the hero myth that we’re all familiar with. But there was this weird these weird stock pictures in that last line was a young that had two men. So I’ve been studying, trying to understand what it meant that what was the difference between what I had grown up with, and most men understood about maleness and what it meant to be a man was the hero’s journey. And I had never heard of the twin arrows. And I found it. Every indigenous culture. And pre Judeo Christian cultures had twin male heroes and their mythic system, as well, as I began to notice in indigenous cultures, they also had dual females. They didn’t call them twins for some reasons. But I began, so I was very intrigued. And when I came across these pictures in that last volume on the stream and young pianists, I realized that one of them was called the hidden to be revealed. And I thought, wow, if there’s something hidden from the alchemists that they had, this must be really significant. And so I began to as I colored them in, I realized that what the change was, was that they were ended up standing on blue feet. The two legs were turned blue and the transformation I knew enough about alchemy and color transformation. I knew that that meant something. And then I had been studying all these different myths about the 20 Girls, particularly the Mayans, at that point that Navajos and I realized wow, child born of the water was a figure of the Navajo method in the Mayan story with a twin heroes who played on the ball court, which many, many of your listeners may have been down to the human hand and seen seeing Chichen Itza in some of the Mayan rooms. The twins were born in every single culture I could find almost every culture I could find as the part of the creation story and it’s only and Roman culture at Romulus kills Rebus and what we’ve lost in Western culture was one of the twins. And so I began to realize that blue now that was water, and and the Mayan story that began to really tell me, because after the twins were called down to the underworld, to meet the Lords and lords of the underworld, because they’re making too much noise, and they were bothering them down there. They went down with the arrogance of the archetypes thinking, well, we’ll just defeat them. Well, they ended up defeating them in the ballgame. But they realize they’re mortal and couldn’t live and they died. And one was born as the son of one was born as the moon. And that was the wake up call for me. Because in Union analysis, and all the most of Jung’s writing, and really not even fleshed out was actually this ancient male moon god. And he was the twin to the Sinad. And so alchemy began to be the piece that changed my life. Because up to that point, and much of the conscious, amazing still, how it’s the feminine side of men, that has talked about to be the compassionate emotional side, rather than the male boom God as that part of masculinity that was separate from the moon, goddess of the feminine. And that began to be the orientation point. So for me, Alchemy, had this extra special transformation and secret for me, so that’s that’s how I came across. Really alchemy and the value personally and emotionally to me and people that I’ve had a chance to share this with. It’s affected some people right away deeply like the two of you, and others and others just don’t relate to it, they keep attached to the, this one’s hero, because you have to let go of the ego identification of what masculinity is to really see the fullness of the organic nature of what it is to be a man that includes both these archetypes

Clay Boykin 14:50
and if I’m, if I’m hearing right, the tradition I remember Karambu talked about this, you know, the man has got develop the female within him and the females got to develop the masculine, the male within her. And that seems so plain. And for me it’s problematic because it’s gender oriented. And, and that gets to be charged because you know, me telling Laurie you need to develop the, the male within you. She’s got to take that too well, right

Howard Teich 15:31
women don’t take it as well as men do. Yeah, developing their feminine side, which is still the dominant myth.

Clay Boykin 15:40
And it’s that language, right? The essence of what you’re talking about. It gets there, but we’ve been using the wrong language and it becomes charged, which cause from my vantage point is an under current of energy that that drives polarity

Howard Teich 15:57
right on. Well, that that is that you really see that polarity, when you see Western culture develop around a solar hero myth where one twin kills the other. I haven’t come across any other culture where one twin killed the other sometimes they didn’t get along sometimes our enemies, oftentimes they were friends. But the murder of that part of the masculine, I think, is what is the big shadow Brinkley of the world right now. And certainly a men.

Clay Boykin 16:32
And so what you’re saying is that the twins, the men that are twins, the traditional or the dominant, the male is killing off the, quote, female aspect of the man. Was that what you’re saying?

Howard Teich 16:49
Only in Western culture in Western culture, right? Yeah, no, no, that that’s what we’ve killed. And that’s what I grew up with. And, you know, we all grew up with that only understanding the single hero story, rather than the twin hero story.

Dennis Tardan 17:06
What amazing and what what, what an amazing experience that is, are we the only culture are we the descendants of this culture? The only major culture that this came from? Would they have this in the, in the, in the pan, Pacific Island and Asian American cultures? Like Chinese or

Howard Teich 17:29
you have you have it there. The one I’m most familiar with is the Chinese culture, the yen and the egg. But you have it there until Confucius about 500 BCE, takes and makes the Yang female and Tao ism which preceded it. It was actually Light and Dark Sun Moon. And so Eve and it is so dominant that most people get attached to this contra gender side because of the Yin and Yang and Western culture, and people won’t let it go it is really they’ve done a great marketing job I’d love to have that marketing company that’s done it because people you know are really it’s very hard to get rid of because we’ve been basically brainwashed with it. And so you know, there’s other cultures that have two spirits but in indigenous color soon as indigenous cultures God dominated by a dominator sure most of that’s what went away because dangerous

Dennis Tardan 18:43
Howard, what is that done to us today? What are we where are we today in in our culture and how can we use alchemy and what how are you using it to where we can actually I have a an opportunity to access this what are what are the roots in?

Howard Teich 19:02
Well, I think the for me the the crossroad right now. Let me bring in one other historical thing. Young had the honor of working with a quantum physicist named Wolfgang Pauli, who was considered Einstein’s, you know, a real pure of Einstein’s and, and his volume. He used Wolfgang pole his dreams to illustrate alchemy. And so as I began to understand this, this twinning and began to scratch just really trying to scratch the surface. I came across the kind of fundamentals of what most people believe is the core of it. I’m in quantum physics, which is the concept of complementarity. Both and rather than either or. And so we are no question in an either or world, and certainly has exploded in the Balkans, again at this whole other level. And so that I’m beginning to understand and as quantum computers come on, and whatever it’s going to be this Metaverse, that is going to have a different kind of conscious experience of engagement. And it is really going to give us a chance to be willing to have the option to surrender the ego, and not use binary thinking, as a black and white way of looking at the world. And nature. Because the radicalness of the cost of binary thinking, is probably the thing that makes it almost impossible for there to be a transformation of almost everything. So my practice is to try to look at trying to look at both and rather than either or. And it’s it’s a conscious habit that one has to develop. And I think that without going into all of the alchemy, about which most people are, it’s kind of the core of quantum consciousness. And all of a sudden, I’m getting all these fires about quantum this and quantum that workshops here and there. And I’m not sure about, you know, I’ve been to some of them and

Dennis Tardan 21:52
buzz word, Howard. We’ve, we’ve adopted it, and we’re and we’re getting into it, and let’s, let’s go ahead and yeah,

Howard Teich 22:02
but they’re kind of this, it’s so simple at one level, to think of both and rather than either when you hear black and white thinking,

Dennis Tardan 22:11
exactly. But you know, I think about it, I think about it in in a in a continuum instead of it by one or zero, it is somewhere along the continuum between one and zero. And as we as I move along to the to the one which is at one meant, or atonement, or being, I am somewhere along this continuum, absolute darkness to absolute light. And as I move along this continuum, I can move a tiny gradient towards one. Or if I get into fear, or lack or that kind of thing. Yeah, I’m a little graduating toward the darker part. But I try to look at it along the continuum. Is that a? Is that a way of framing it?

Howard Teich 22:59
Totally? And I would say, Yeah, because we are a continuum of energy. And we’re in these cellular forms, that are a manifestation of this quantum energy. Yes, for from the cosmos. And if I could say to your listeners, I would say that you two are the two people that my first conversation with you where we got into this, both and I have not had that experience very often. So whatever it is that you two are contributing, and these podcasts and and your other work, I would really highly recommend that people keep understanding what both of you are doing, because you’re carrying it on at a architectural level, not just at an ego level.

Dennis Tardan 23:52
Thank you. lovely thing to hear. Yeah,

Howard Teich 23:55
that’s true.

Clay Boykin 23:57
You know, what comes to mind, I mean, this this whole search, you know, this search for the compassionate male is we’re picking up knowledge and wisdom for everybody that we talked about. And I said, Well, I heard this here, Howard, how does that fit for you? And so it’s a snowball effect of knowledge and information. And I know at times I’m holding it all. I don’t, I don’t understand it. But I feel like there’s something there. There’s an energy there and it keeps keeps growing. Yep. And for me to sit here and say, Well, I can explain it all. There’s no way but I can I can I don’t have the words to express what I’m feeling with the momentum that we’ve got happening here. I appreciate

Howard Teich 24:47
the wisdom of not saying all or nothing. What is the difference? The if you have a chance, you know, just at the most esoteric level, many A lot of the esoteric systems end up with a sun and a moon i. And since they’re connected to the left brain and the right brain, and people are more used to talking about the left brain being a linguistic tool, and the right brain gave me the emotional tool, it takes complementarity to do both. And, and that’s really the to me, the biggest thing that I think I, you know, we’ll get make a breakthrough here and people’s thinking, to get out of the subject object metaphor system. Yeah. And to move into reflective consciousness, not projections.

Clay Boykin 25:47
You know, one of the things I agree with that one of the things that, that I’ve been able to verbalize it is this whole notion of the, the plurality of, you know, absolutes, you know, this or this, and there’s anything in between is compromise. Well, no, this to get from this point to this point, there’s infinite points in between, which to me is now looking like infinite possibilities, right? Not compromise where nobody gets what they really wanted, no, has infinite possibilities of what that space in between is, for me, at least,

Howard Teich 26:25
yeah, no, I think that compromises when the ego is still attached, it’s just going to the other end, and hasn’t really surrendered. It’s black and white point of view is kind of in the back of the brain. So you know, as somebody is trying to expand, but unless you’re going to surrender the ego attachment to binary thinking, you’re gonna be caught in a binary world. And then see in a new way with fresh eyes, since it’s our the information that we’re making up anyway, and to get out of the projection into the energy flow and be informed by the interior life. As a reflection, rather than an object, that’s an art. And as that’s the, to me the modern art of alchemy.

Clay Boykin 27:19
I just saw a visualization, because we’re talking about, you know, this or this. And this, this ego keeps us in into a compromised conversation. And the release of the ego allows us both to lift up higher, and lift our sights higher and aim at something higher than either one

Howard Teich 27:38
and expanded ego. Because ego, that’s a child of the unconscious, but the ego thinks it is the unconscious.

Clay Boykin 27:51
Damn ego

Dennis Tardan 27:52
over identification.

Howard Teich 27:54
It’s really, you know, you can look at indigenous wisdom built around that twins story. Now twins, as a metaphor of complementarity is what you know, I think people are searching for and getting those people who don’t want to think in binary terms. And there’s most you know, plenty of people are never, certainly in our lifetime. I don’t think they’re gonna give up the binary request. But it’s the healthy ego that’s built with its Remember, it’s where it came from, rather than think it is it. That’s what we’re talking about the immune and ego to power the you need a healthy ego, hopefully, and complementarity.

Dennis Tardan 28:40
I love that idea, Howard, because I always thought of that I always thought of that when I would miss read a lot of this the a lot of the text and psychological texts that you know that we that our goal is to kill the ego. The ego is somehow evil in that and I thought, well, now, I have this physical body and I can eat cake and feed it all kinds of empty calories and I will damage leading this body. Alright, well, couldn’t ego be the same thing? would there not be new trick nutritive ways of making healthy ego?

Howard Teich 29:17
Yeah, because the ego is part of the body. It’s an emergent phenomena. Yeah. You know, some people think the modern ego happened, you know, 2000 1500 years ago, as opposed to collective ego, and the transition that was going on at that time, mostly into monotheism. But that came along with it was this thing that I think is now called the ego that if it still remembers that it’s built on nature, not an object is how the subject object might headset

Dennis Tardan 30:00
exactly, you inside view inside yourself. I’m because I’ve only done this. I’ve only had this a few times and sometimes in meditations a couple of times in one night when I was in some kind of a psychedelic experience, to read to understand that my ego and who I really am are two different.

Howard Teich 30:22
I’d say they’re complementary,

Dennis Tardan 30:24
yes, they are complementary, but they are but that but I, when it’s when I over identify with the self, or the self Exactly, right.

Howard Teich 30:35
This was if I could bring in the word self, which, and mandola what I Jung’s major things was trying to figure this out. And I would encourage any listener that really is interested in alchemy to read his auto bio, his biography at the end, memories, dreams, reflections, because he goes to a couple of chapters, he really goes into the importance of alchemy,

Dennis Tardan 31:03
is it understandable to people who do not have the kind of depth and the study that you that you have, would we

Howard Teich 31:10
is it that’s what, that’s where that is his most successful writing. The rest of his writing is almost, you got to really be willing to do the work. But no, that was written when he was 80. And it’s review of his life. And you might not be people might not be interested in all the different parts of it. But to really see, other guys, where this came from was an honest struggle, trying to understand the unconscious, and came across, after he really had this tragedy with Freud, were they couldn’t get along, because they had a different definition of the unconscious. And boy thought it was sexually driven. And you thought it was something in addition to sex, and they had a big breakthrough, and breakout. And I kind of finished by 1913. And your work went into retreat. And he spent five years doing an amazing amount of self discovery. And in that he was quite the artist, and talented. And as it turned out, the poor five years into it, he began to draw, and he began to draw my dollars. And I wanted to bring this in for people that know Clay and clay, his work. Yes, and that’s clays new book, which I have not seen the cover up. And that beautiful color blue, hopefully, is seen as the lunar masculine for men and a lunar feminine for women. And, you know, but that was his big breakthrough. And I want to tie this into alchemy, because he realized in about 1918, that there was a center and he called it the self. And it was an archetype. And at that point, he had withdrawn from the world give up his professorship in Zurich, and, and had pretty much stopped writing and then from then on and till, let me just kind of jump forward to 1927 ish. Were Richard Wilhelm, the man who wrote the chain, or translated it, that a lot of people are familiar with seminal book called The Secret of the golden flower. And it was an ancient Taoist alchemical text. And he saw a mandala in there that made him realize that the mandala was the self and that alchemy was the through line because as a scientist, he didn’t he wanted to find out if there was a new there, if this was going to be accurate that what most of us, many of us now think is the way the world works on the collective unconscious. And many of these amazing discoveries a new him did. It was his discovery of mandalas. That was the beginning of the center of himself. And that was, and he stopped doing mandalas in 1927 28, when that book was published, and that’s when he really went in and collected these books in Europe, about alchemy, which were in Latin and Greek, and many other languages. So the mandala that clay has in place work is really your centering device that that you’ve discovered is the art A type of wholeness, that’s transpersonal. And so deep. And so I wanted to tie the self, and the mandalas in for your listeners. So I’m sure some are familiar with that part of your work.

Clay Boykin 35:17
I so appreciate you saying that Howard. You know, for years, I was drawing this thing. And it had four quadrants to it. And, and I, it was just innate, something was happening. And I was using it in business for 20 years. And I would put this together and what I’ve since learned is the term quaternity. I’d have the pieces. And then I put all this stuff together, trying to put the puzzle together. And once I put it all into context, I had this big sigh, like, Oh, there’s the answer. And that’s what I saw. When somebody showed me the Joseph Campbell, quote, you know, it’s about taking and putting all the scattered aspects of one life, one’s life in in order with the universe. Oh, that’s the big sigh. That’s what I’ve been doing. And so now, oh, now I’m starting to put language to it. And then every time you and I talked our aside for costing me a fortune and great books of whichever one I’ve appreciated, you keep pointing me to new, you’ve put this bread trail out in front of me is helped me really understand more about the essence of what the power of a mandala is. And I’m still feel like I’m just scratching this

Howard Teich 36:33
Yeah, well, I think we all are trying to figure out ourselves, and what that means. And this era.

Dennis Tardan 36:42
It feels applicable because it feels like that what we’re, that what we’re experiencing now is a change in consciousness. I mean, we’re understanding with with with, with, I know that what looks, it appears to me is everything is outside of here. But it all happens in here. I mean, the the light comes into my eyes and all that and it translated to a picture out there. But it’s all happening in here, right? Well as we begin to get into virtual reality, and we begin to to marry the marry what’s going on, inside the brain with, with all the different kinds of inputs, it seems like that we’re going to be we’re going to be shifting the consciousness and what’s going to be what’s going to be looking at in this metaverse.

Howard Teich 37:35
That’s a deeper hope. Along with that is going to be a shift out of binary thinking.

Dennis Tardan 37:44
And that’s where that’s where we’re going.

Howard Teich 37:47
Yep. If I could say just one of the I find interesting thing about alchemy, and I think, you know, all of us, and I’m sure most of your listeners have learned to work on themselves in some way to keep expanding the consciousness. And the alchemist essentially had four colors, because colors were important to them. But they had four basic colors, that can summarize a way to work on yourself. It was black, white, red, and gold. And there were some other colors like blue and other colors were part of it. But their main contribution was black represented our shadow, and in our shadow to admit our shadows, which if in any relationship, it’s easy, if you ask the other. And they’re honest with you, they’ll tell your shadow, whether they want to hear it or not. And then you have to go through the whitening stage, which is the purification of the shadow. And then once you purify out the shadow, and I think this is what your comments made me want to share this that you have to go through a reading stage where you bring back in the energy that was entangled in the shadow to that archetype. And by living that either in a binary, non binary way, in a complementary way, you have a chance to do this deeper alchemy that you’ve discovered almost automatically clay in your mandala work gets you there and you have a way to do it for all of us. And I know you because I know how hard you work on yourselves both of you. It is that holding that space and complementarity around all the opposites that want to reduce us and are not friendly to this other mindset. And when The beauty of what’s going on technologically is that when you get immersed, and some of the new technology, it just happens. You don’t have a choice to if you’re going to experience it, to get past it as whether afterwards you then retain it. And birth it as a conscious part of your mindset. So that the ego and a deeper self are working together in a complimentary way.

Clay Boykin 40:29
That’s not an intellectual event. It this has I’m reading it, I mean, it’s almost a visceral experience that eventually, for me, it becomes conscious and I can say, oh, that’s what was happening. Yeah, I can’t think my way into that space.

Howard Teich 40:53
No, one thing as if thing about consciousness, as much as you want to have the intention. And so Oh, most only after it happens that you become aware that you will become conscious of something before it disappears.

Dennis Tardan 41:10
Yeah. Yeah. That’s, that’s, I find it interesting to know, to imagine all the things that I’m going to be learning that I can keep myself open. So when I do come upon them, I actually experience them rather than walking past right on, right on, you know, and that’s really my prayer, keep me open, keep me open universe, to what lessons are here so that I can both learn them and experience them and share them and share their grace?

Clay Boykin 41:50
Let me take just one piece of the alchemical process. There was this term that I’ve heard, I’ve heard, and I’ve actually embedded it up into my mandala right here over here somewhere called the philosopher’s stone. And for the life of me, I, I knew that it was something but I couldn’t figure out what that something really was, until I began to tell you pointed me into the alchemical process. But even now, I have trouble. It’s nice to well, what’s the Philosopher’s Stone? Can you?

Howard Teich 42:25
Well, I take a minor stab at it, that it’s the elixir. It’s the part of all of us that are seeking health. And that was the main metaphor, one of the main metaphors for the alchemist was searching for the phosphor stone, which oftentimes was imaged. And the last, there’s seven different stages of alchemy, but I’ll just refer to the last one, which is called the sacred marriage. And it’s a sacred marriage oftentimes was imaged as the sun and the moon. And so I keep exploring that complementarity of the sun and the moon, taking the gender labels off, and dealing with the energy. And finding that is the way that I try to image and articulate the elixir, the Philosopher’s Stone, the healing stone, but they were they were after healings, they were trying to end something and discover something and it was that piece that I have seen imaged as the sun and the moon and the complementarity. And in many of the alchemical pictures, because they were immersed in nature, they didn’t have the magnitude of the subject object language, so poor way, and they were trying to figure something out about matter. When we you know, accepted matter as an object and try to accumulate it, rather than see it on the continual evolution that you pointed out it really is. synergy that isn’t fixed unless the ego fixes it. Yeah. made into

Dennis Tardan 44:20
an object. And I find it fascinating when I when I when I read the Financial Times and I you see people with billions of dollars and I go okay, well, what would be enough I realized it’s it must be playing a game It must be playing the game you know, and that there’s always the game to win more. But what to put in to to what when do we ask ourselves that question, to what end? What are we doing here on the planet? What is my what is my my? Why am I here? Are

Howard Teich 45:00
we that’s the, that’s what I have. Spirit of summarizes the plus for stone is his quantum energy of the wave and the particle and trying to keep it alive and minimally make it into matter attitudes. Emotions that gets stuck.

Clay Boykin 45:21
Okay, the shadow. Okay, so let me pick up on that you said shadow. And you’ve taught me the term prima materia. And in some ways does that equate?

Howard Teich 45:39
That’s, that’s what I think, again discovered is that the prima materia that the alchemist were working with was their own shadow. Okay, that into matter. And that the thing about the alchemist said this, then the symbolism, which is fascinating to me, is crucial for hundreds, if not 1000s A years as an evolution of how we see matter. And so now I believe we’re in the quantum level of not make up realizing there’s something invisible, that’s matter as not just visible, and it’s seeing the visible and the invisible, that makes that complementarity rather than getting one sided. So it’s really in our personal shadow in our collective shadow, that keeps the transformation from going in a way that just keeps getting acted out and projection and making the other the object that’s the enemy. Rather than admitting that part of ourselves. And that’s what, you know, unconsciously the alchemists were doing was getting their ego another way. You know, they had to be fairly wealthy to afford all that equipment. They were hated by the church. And so many of you are philosophers and doctors really looking for healings. And I think all of us no matter who we are, at what’s part of that continuum, we are we are looking for healings and having a longer, more vital for life.

Clay Boykin 47:23
I guess they were, I guess, at some point, they were beginning to equate. I guess, that part of healing physically is the mental health healing?

Howard Teich 47:33
Well, I’d say that’s where we’re at in young came in. Okay. And that’s what they were able to do and picking up this thing that’s called the unconscious. Is that that is I call the unconscious the self. Because, you know, and the ego relationship to the unconscious, is what flows and works. When you have too much ego, or too much unconscious, you’re in trouble. And that’s hard to find. The right dance of particular configuration.

Clay Boykin 48:18
Wow, the hard ego driving the unconscious. There’s a formula for disaster, right?

Dennis Tardan 48:25
It’s been in my life. Yeah.

Clay Boykin 48:27
For all of us. Yeah. Oh, not me.

Dennis Tardan 48:30
All right. All right. plays on that. Car. No, I wrote. How are you? And I will, you and I will sit down together? We’ll have a beer together. And then you can you’re going to send on your

Clay Boykin 48:46
right, till the wax melts off my wings.

Dennis Tardan 48:52
Oh, Howard, I want to thank you so much for today, because I love the opportunity to learn more in this discuss, what are what are the, because I love the idea of that radio waves existed before the invention of the radio. You know, it wasn’t just we began to use them. And we begin to sensitize myself to the power of intuition to be able to see I’m you know, that’s where, where Einstein and so many of the fine men and so many they use their intuition on on a regular basis that this is where the this is part of what we’re doing. And as we’re building that muscle, and you’re such a proponent and a practitioner, in developing the intuition and using it that you have used it so much in your life and it’s one of the reasons why I’m so inspired every time I get around to do that, because that’s something I’m working to develop into practice more in my life.

49:56
I feel honored to know both of you

Dennis Tardan 50:00
CLAY thank you for this opportunity today to be on in search of the new compassionate male and Howard, thank you. Thank you again for this, this chance to have another journey and may we continue these conversations if we learn, learn more I want to I want to explore in the next time we talk the, the concept of the collapsing of the future as it collapses as we observe it. And so one of the reasons why it’s so careful, I need to be careful to what I observe because what I observe will actually be part of my reality and so I want to talk about that more and with you and with you clay and anything closing clay that you want to share.

Clay Boykin 50:45
As always, I come away with a bit more knowledge when Howard and I talk

Dennis Tardan 50:52
and more questions than when I walked in. I have always have more questions on the other side of a conversation with our tastes than

Clay Boykin 51:01
in my my Amazon book bill continues to get a little bit bigger.

Dennis Tardan 51:09
If Jeff Bezos goes oh

Clay Boykin 51:19
I just love it when Howard is with us. It always expands my thinking and I come away on oh boy so much more to study and so much not

Dennis Tardan 51:28
just my thinking too. It’s my heart. Yeah. Because Because Howard You’re such you’re such a deeply heartful man and have have brought in your love and your love consciousness and that has that for me that my the way I interpret the word is is so strong and and your intellect of course, but but the combination of those that you bring to us is is extraordinary. Thank you. Thank you for the above. All right, thank you, Clay. And thank you everyone who has been here for this podcast and we look forward to seeing you on future podcast in search of the new compassionate. Well done, Howard. Did you hold that right there? Hold it

Clay Boykin 52:25
thanks. Thank you. Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate mail on your favorite podcast Station.

Ep 113: Sande Hart on The Liminal Odyssey

Ep 113: Sande Hart on The Liminal Odyssey

The Liminal Odyssey: The Alchemical Power of the Space In-Between – “Everyone has a unique story known only to them that when shared is a sacred gift to the world. In her book, The Liminal Odyssey: The Alchemical Power of The Spaces In-Between, Sande Hart’s life experiences flow authentically onto the page and reveal her own dance within her own sacred liminal space. From her sobering and chilling experience, visiting Auschwitz and Birkenau death camp, to her cry out to the stadium-filled crowd to save an abandoned dog,  Sande captures and shares many life lessons that evoked inspiration, and at times melted me into a sacred surrender to truths I had only known unconsciously.” – Clay Boykin

 

 

 

 

 

 

Transcript

Sande  00:07

We all have, we’re all encoded like that seed. We’re all encoded with the potentiality of 10,000 forests. One oak tree can produce up to 10,000 forests, by all the seats that potentially can draw, and plant and grow again.

Sande  00:24

We have a design assignment, I believe Aristotle calls it our calling where your passions meet the needs in the world, therein lies your calling. And it goes so much deeper than that, of course, yet it’s about what is it that makes us come alive? And why aren’t we living there? Because that’s, you know, where our potential gift is to the world. And maybe that’s what we all need to be showing up with.

Clay  00:49

The book has really moved me it takes incredible courage to share on the level that you shared. Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male.

Clay  01:00

My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay boykin.com for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male.

Dennis  01:21

Hello World. It’s me Dennis and we are in search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this particular podcast I’m here with the founder clay Boykin, oh, Clay, hey, Dennis, my dear friend, Sande Hart is back. Sande and I met in 2018, the fall of 2018 at the Parliament of the world’s religions. And I can tell you, she took me under her wing, and was instrumental in moving forward the work that we’ve been doing with men and raising compassion, consciousness and men. And we’re just pleased to have her here. She’s got a new book. And we’re going to talk about that and whatever comes up.

Dennis  02:01

Oh, wonderful. How wonderful. Welcome, Sande. Well, thank you so much. I am thrilled to be here. I am thrilled to be here and you didn’t stand in my way too long.

Sande  02:12

You flew right out of there. And look what you’ve managed. And you and Dennis together are amazing and breathtaking. To behold, we’re you know, we’re we’re

Dennis  02:26

Thank you, Sande it is How gracious of you it is. It is amazing to me because we still see the power structure that is still predominantly male, and certainly predominantly white male and older, white male as we’re seeing this. So the power structure and the dynamics are shifting to this wonderful interdependence, this wonderful collection of knowing that that the world is a yes. And rather than a then an OR gate. And and this is the place where you’re playing with your new book and all on can you talk a little bit about what’s going on? And what your what what is impelled you to write this wonderful tome.

Sande  03:11

Yes, thank you. Well, first of all, yes, we are definitely in an evolutionary growth spurt. And you know, you had two very dear friends of mine on your program not too long ago, Connie Baxter Marlowe and Andrew Cameron Bailey, who wrote the trust frequency, and one of their 10 assumptions isour 10… Yeah, I think the 10 assumptions are that are we are humanity is an upward spiral motion. But I challenge that, and I love Connie and Andrew and I will respectfully have the same conversation with them. But why is it we keep spiraling? What is it that keeps us coming back around and moving up ever so gently?

Sande  04:02

What is it that keeps us from elevating at such a slower pace, and right now it feels like the trajectory is accelerated and it’s going up straight, I don’t see it coming back around to the very point of what you’re working on. And that’s the patriarchy and, and the domination trance that we’ve been walking through that Dr. Riane Eisler speaks of, and because we are walking through these assumptions of the way things used to be that that male and female feminine and masculine have these different identities but now we’re pulling back the veil on that. And and those assumptions that no longer service with the work that you are doing, which is so critically profound to that. You’ve really gone right to the heart of that darkness. It’s served us patriarchy has served us. It’s yeah, it’s time has come.

Clay  04:58

Well it’s time for it to evolve as time. I’m free to move to the next level, like you’re saying, right? Isn’t it something we’re, and I know, I’m guilty of this of trying to hold on to the past, you know, I wish things were the way they used to be. Well think about that I don’t, I really don’t think I want that. But I keep migrating back in, it’s almost like, I’m not going to change until I have to change until the pressures are such that, that I’ve got no choice but to change. And I feel like that’s where we are in the world right now

Sande  05:32

Yeah, that’s the creative tension that always comes before great change. So we can bless that creative tension, you know, the piling on of crises that we don’t even have to name here. But then when we can look at the things that are changing the assumptions that are falling off, like what we consider identity, what we consider feminine and masculine even. Yeah, and so we’re and the way technology has been accelerating and speeding up and created lots of havoc in our life, it’s also helped us consciously grow because we have information coming at a so quickly, that we have no choice but to expand our mind and our thinking and our ability to, to, to, to receive information.

Sande  06:25

And it’s both it’s both a great tension. With a great it’s like when you put a seed in the ground, the seed first has to disintegrate before New Life can grow from it. Right? And what grows from it looks very different from the seed, right? We’re at that place in evolution where we could see both the seed and the sprout wildly wonderful time to be alive.

Clay  06:49

Gosh, I go back to Dana White talking with this. And the myth of progress, you know, and how it’s been going for the past 500 years, and the whole idea of technology and faster and faster and faster. In contrast, though, he talks about the myth of the fall, the story of the fall, you know, progress, but there’s the downside to it. And we’re certainly seeing that accentuated right now.

Sande  07:24

Yeah. From Joseph Campbell, from death comes life. All the myths. So stories are dying. And we have a choice, it is our moment of choice. We want the midwife service or casualties.

Clay  07:42

Yeah, it is and, and in your book, and I’m gonna name your book.

Sande  07:48

Oh, yes, thank you.

Clay  07:50

The book is titled the liminal Odyssey, the alchemical power of the spaces in between the beautiful book. And in it, you reference the Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey. But you’ve got a twist, or you’ve got modification or you’ve added to it can you talk about that some Sande?

Sande  08:14

Yeah, I found that I originally set out to frame my, the stories that appeared to me in my life, in in the hero’s journey, and started doing my own charting of what was happening in my life, if I could look at it through that lens. And the hero’s journey really fell short for me. And I realized that the linear the linear fashion of the hero’s journey is kind of specific. First comes the call to action then comes to the appearance of allies and wizards, and, and, and so on. And I think you can be you can be all of these things at once. You know, I close my book on a real great example, if you say so myself on the call to action and the resurrection, step one and step 10. Together.

Sande  09:06

Oh, well expire. It’s not even a spiral. It’s six and it’s AGS. A Bob around.

Dennis  09:10

Thank you. All right, May I May I use a metaphor, please. i When, when we had back when Joseph Campbell was writing this, we were very much in a linear world. It was very much of one thing happened after another we did this when very much in our, in our process. This is what the the this is the pre the digital immigrants. These are this is the pre that we had but the today, it’s a nonlinear world, so that the kids like Okay, so he’s 18 and wants to have his midlife crisis at 18 Go ahead and have it get it out of the way and continue on. So I love that idea because we can actually, we can actually create the journey at time when we need it rather than having it prescribed for us.

Sande  10:03

Absolutely. And that has something to do with patriarchy to. Things are a certain way because that’s just the way they are because someone prescribed them that way. And we’re waking up.

Dennis  10:19

What what is the courage that it takes for you to be out on the leading edge to be able to do this? Because you’re gonna, because you have to be willing to be able to have people go, Oh, are you okay? What? So I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s

Sande  10:34

And I go like this, like, teach teach.

Clay  10:38

I thought it was bring it on, bring it.

Sande  10:44

And I and I actually I say, Listen, we read my book, and then go to Amazon and leave a review. And I can even this even a crunchy one, even one that isn’t glowing. That’s how I have to learn these things. That’s part of my liminal Odyssey. I have to be able to clear all the stuff that doesn’t serve me. I don’t have to agree with you. But you know, when you’re talking about courage, yeah, vulnerability is required if you’re going to sit down and write a book, right?

Clay  11:13

Oh, my God. Yes.

Sande  11:16

Yeah, and it’s required in a limit a lot of sleep. And I think you’re only as strong as your willingness to be vulnerable.

Clay  11:22

Well, I want to ask you Liminal Odyssey how’d you come up with the title?

Sande  11:29

You know, I didn’t set out to write a book about liminal space. I did not even know what liminal meant until about a year ago. And even then I learned it to me threshold, and the space between crisis and choice or crisis and action. And, you know, before that, I was starting to write a, I’ve been trying to write a story about something that happened in the 1982 at the Rose Bowl at a no nukes rally called Peace Sunday. I’ve told this story before. It’s a remarkable story. It had some synchronistic stories that lasted over the course of 30 years. And like, I got to tell the story, or others are saying you’ve got to tell the story. But I didn’t have enough of the story to write. And as I’m, as I’m sitting down to write it again. I started really paying attention to what was going on inside of me what caused what what it was that prompted me in that moment to create what was a wave of a critical mass to care about a single dog in the midst of 100,000 people that unknown next rally. The last 12 hours. Tell us about the dog. What about the dog?

Sande  12:53

Yeah, so it was no nukes rally and music festival. It was tucked right between Woodstock and Live Aid. It was a cause concert. So in between the activists and the speakers and musicians. There were moments of silence Now earlier in the day. The emcee hit a rider right from the very start, the emcee came to the microphone, and said, Hey, we just got a report from the parking lot. Somebody left their dog in the car. If that’s your job, please go roll your windows down. There was a low grade blue and then you know everyone forgot about it except for me. Speaker I think it was Reverend Jesse Jackson comes to the microphone says some words of wisdom leads and before the band can start playing the first band. I think it was todo I don’t remember. Taj Mahal it was Taj Mahal.

Sande  13:47

Sitting, started singing or playing their music. I just started chat. Shouting, what about the dog? What about the dog? I was relentless. I was the relentless irritans. So they would have to answer I’m thinking surely they care about the dog. Surely they’ll report back. And then my moment came again. After the band was done before the next speaker come to the mic. I started again, only now my friends started with me. Didn’t take long before a whole section started. By noon, the whole stadium was chanting. What about the dog? It took off without me and lasted until 10 o’clock it well? No, it was more like seven o’clock when the emcee came to the microphone and said, so you want to know about the dog?

Sande  14:31

The dog is fine. Now odds are they just realized they would have to come then, you know answer that the question of the day because Mr. Stevie Wonder was coming and asking for five minutes of silence for to pray for world peace. But that was a story that I had no other story to tell it and about one, you know, time 15 or 20 years later. And then someone said, Wow, that’s a great story. You should really tell that story. And it grew legs on its own. And I sat down to write about what was going on inside of me. They got me to open my mouth. And I’m like, Oh, I’m, I get liminal. Now. I get Okay, there was my crisis. And here’s my call to action in the hero’s journey, and what was going on inside me, reverent listening, I read reverent listening. So the more I started writing about that experience, and what was going on inside of me, and what was reverent listening, the sacred art of listening, other stories started, kind of, you know, lining up, and they were all wildly synchronistic. And they were all anchored in a different skill, whether it was whether it’s the trust frequency, that’s a chapter in my book, recognizing your archetype. And I frame that in the goddess archetype, Maiden, mother and crone which you can also be all three at a time, which I play my living generally.

Sande  16:00

And listening to your body and understanding mindfulness in a different way. So each story is anchored with a different skill set. And then I stood back and I went, Oh, wait, all those skills together, I pulled them out. And I looked at them. And I’m like, independently, they’ve all got merit independently. They’re all really powerful and respected practices. And they are all practices, which by the way, neuro neuroplasticity and how Dr. James Doty, who has also been a guest has influenced me greatly. And, but what happens when you practice them together? There’s that coherence, there’s that coherence that were that were the individual skills, collectively are greater than the sum of their parts. So we have to practice Reverend listening in order for us to understand trust for us to understand, you know, the biology and how our, our body is wired, for compassion, how to understand what the multi sensory perceptions are, Gary Zooka speaks to understand that thoughts happen outside of ourselves that Dr. James Lipton talks about, and James Hillman and all those that came before him, and and you know, of course, giving credit respectfully, but how, collectively they are interdependent, mutually supportive, and create their own constellation. And like, Okay, this is sounding like a preachy book. I don’t, I don’t, I’m not going to write a preachy book, because, like I said, I’m here to learn.

Sande  17:39

And, wait, what would happen if I took other like, air Aveda, which I did, or the chakra systems and understanding crystals and all of that, or whatever skills that you, you as the reader, you know, find super helpful, what happens when you just put them in that petri dish and mix it up? It works, it works, you know, for everything. So, yeah, I’ve got, I’ve kind of like, I’m looking at a bookshelf with 300 books, and probably 250 different modalities and methodologies, but they’re single. They’re single processes. What happens when you take all the processes we already know, that worked for us, and put them together?

Sande  18:23

That’s the liminal Odyssey, when you can stop in the spaces in between, and apply those skills and expand what may seem like a mundane, otherwise unremarkable experience like an MC saying, hey, somebody left their dog in the car. So it’s still going on and still having synchronistic events from that. It didn’t make it into the book, by the way.

Dennis  18:49

Not the maybe not this book.

Clay  18:56

I keep going back to the dog. And, you know, what started out as you as an individual and then two people to make a wave 100,000 people making that wave? It hit me like a tsunami. And how long has it been how many years and it was so powerful the way you wrote it, and the way you shared it… it really hit me. Like it’s hit me now. And so yeah, and that’s just the start of the book.

Dennis  19:41

This is, this is so holy to watch to see to participate in this because this, what I love about what the precursor to that time, is how quickly we can connect on the internet. Now, how quickly we can get a wonderful idea out there, how quickly we can get the opportunity to be able to let people know what’s wonderful, we in the news business have been lazy and lazy in the sense that we will, we will only focus on something that is sensational. Whereas something that is powerful, this liminal space between being able to sit there in this, in this space is, is where it all happens. Without it, nothing else occurs.

Sande  20:35

I actually talk about in the sacred art of listening, talking about how we’ve been duped that to receive so much information so quickly just look at TV commercials, right? Absorb all this information, but there’s not enough time to stop and think, Is that really what I consider happiness? Is that going to make my life better if I buy that car? Yeah, you know, but I do have time to call the number, right. I can read that I can remember that number. But I can’t remember to stop in the moment. sacred art of listening, by the way is how to prepare to listen, not the act of listening, but the How to Prepare to listen. And so

Sande  21:14

I think it’s really important to, to really pay attention to how much we listen. And that’s a practice. It is a habit to form. And we can do that through neuroplasticity all of these skills can be practiced and accomplished just like any other habit, you want to form that repetition.

Dennis  21:33

What is this book, leading you to do differently in your life than you had before? Because something is, it’s palpable. There is some there’s something that is so dynamic about where you are right now and what you’re bringing, which is going to bring opportunities that are increasing and what you’re what you’re doing. I’m fascinated to know what’s going on.

Sande  22:01

Wow, thank you so much. My first answer is I don’t know. Which is my favorite thing to say. Because that means I’m not attached. That means I can really listen and pay attention. And that is so against the character of who I used to be. Right. I used to feel like I need to be in control. I need a chart my way. I’ve got my goals. We have a vision board. We know ultimately, we want to have this house on the beach, you know, with all you know, certain material things actually. On the sidelines with our grandkids playing soccer, no doubt about that. And I believe that could happen, or will happen. I should say, I believe that will happen. But in terms of where I’m going, how has it changed me with your question? Or what have I noticed in myself?

Dennis  22:44

Let’s let’s just put what are you noticing, right, right now as it’s happening?

Sande  22:48

Oh, yeah. Big difference there. Yeah, the time fulness my, the word that I coined time fulness time for like being mindful. But now we’re being timeful. So it’s like, it’s not just taking a pause and collecting yourself, which it does involve that it’s going okay, what’s going on in my body? What are my true are my trillion cells speaking to me right now? 37 trillion cells to be exact? Yeah. What are they saying to me? You know, how am I feeling in my body right now? What’s going on around me? What am I missing? You know, it’s really applying those those skills in in terms of time, fullness spaces in between. And I’m not so quick to judge. I’m definitely, um, more careful in my responses, care dash full in my responses. And I just am more courageous. Like, like, all a lot of the muck has just fallen away.

Sande  23:56

A lot of stuff that I realized, why aren’t I doing that? My Wait, am I not? I’m not. I’m not good enough. Or I’m not smart enough. I’m not educated enough. All that blah, blah, blah, that we hear that? You know, for years, women say to themselves way too much, and I can’t speak for men, I can only hear what I hear from say what I hear from women. And it’s not that it’s really embodying that. So they go, I’ve only got probably a good 3040 more years on this planet. Sure. So I’m gonna max it out the last 40 years have been sorry, my kids last six years. Subliminal, subliminal. So six. You know, my last six years have been incredibly wild and wonderful. And so yeah, and also, I was just talking about this the other day on another program about forgiveness. And looking at the big T traumas, a couple of witches share in the book. So talk about vulnerability.

Sande  24:59

The big T, the traumas that I had in a moment I would think, Oh my god, this is the worst possible thing that 30 years later, I would come to see where the greatest blessings. So I remember that now something’s not working out for me even something like being late. I’m like, Okay, what am I doing? Because I hate being late. And for me, that’s a, that there’s something that I must have been traumatized as a child because for me being late is like being rude. But I don’t want to be late. But But okay, I wonder what I’m being protected from right now. I wonder what’s going to happen on the other end, somebody sucks me in the throat figuratively breaks, my heart keeps me in bed for three months. That didn’t happen that long ago.

Sande  25:42

And I and I was, you know, really devastated. Yet. If that were to happen to me now I’d say, I can’t wait to see what this is all about. So that’s part of the time fulness to that I have only noticed happening me I didn’t necessarily will it practicing these other skills. And of course, writing about it Sure, sure does help, but really embodying it. You know, I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t practice this stuff. And I do.

Dennis  26:11

Oh, yes. But that’s, that’s really the whole key to it. I’ve never known a teacher. I’ve never known a teacher, that that impacted me that did not walk there first, did not do the walk first and then say, okay, there. That’s the teaching. That’s the teaching. And that’s what I’m getting from you, Sande, that’s what I’m getting an opportunity to be able to know. There is this opportunity, because I love to. I love to give part in forgive. And really, really the gift that there is for me what I am holding on to what I’m because I’ve got a lot of self, I grew up with a lot of we as men had a something that clay and I have both experienced that had a model out there, that we were supposed to live up to that inside of us when that’s not who I am. And this is allowing us this the patriarchy that we’re all wounded by the patriarchy in the sense that it allows us to be able to let go that to be able to have that to, for me to embody who I am. And whoever that is. And that’s what I get from you. There’s such an deep authenticity about about you, that just is profoundly moving. And no matter where you are right now,

Clay  27:42

I’m going to pick right up on that, Dennis, because, yeah, what about the dog? Every story that you share in there the vulnerability that you’re expressing in your book. Every story has real power to it. And I’m savoring it. If I can, I’m going to, because I really want us to, I really want to hear about this, I want to race to chapter 12.

Sande  28:08

Oh, thank you. And by the way, can I just go back and say, Clay, you helped me with forgiveness. Remember, we had a conversation while I was writing the book. So credit where credit’s due, you really helped me understand and you reframed everything for me. So you are totally in the fabric of you are in between the words on that chapter. So chapter 12.

Sande  28:32

About acorn rain in Birkenau. Yeah. Can you share about that?

Sande  28:43

Yeah, I was part of the one humanity Institute, a group of folks who are still in existence working on a project to build an education system right there in Auschwitz, right, adjacent to the grounds of the Auschwitz museum, the death camp, and we did a tour there. And then we went across the way to Birkenau which was another death camp. And while we were in the, by the way, while I was going through the tour, the very first thing I noticed after I walked through those very famous, wrought iron archway, words, work will set you free is what that says in German. I noticed the trees lining the walkways. Now they were rather young. But I imagined Gosh, I wonder maybe those trees have been here for about 80 years. Perhaps they have been here long enough. And we shot and I hugged one. That’s all I could do is think about the trees and what stories they absorbed and what scenes they saw on what did they witness and, and so I was really seeing this whole thing through the trees and then we get over to Birkenau And we’ve done the whole tour, guided by the way, and we get to the end of the, like a big park area, the end of the tour.

Sande  30:09

And there’s this big park area where they’re monuments and things and burnt down buildings. And there was this gorgeous grandmother’s oak tree. She her trunk was so big that my arms would probably take three sets of arms to get around her trunk. So I’m like, she’s been here a while. She’s witnessed it all. And I asked permission, and I wrap my arms around her ever so gently, and I can almost feel her exhale. I don’t think I wrote this in the book, I can still feel it felt like the trunk was just relax. And then all of a sudden, I hear raindrops behind me. And I look and I’m being showered by acorns.

Sande  30:55

And I turned in Nina Meyerhof, by the way, who wrote my forward in my book, and I sit, she was walking towards me, I gotta to see.

Sande  31:05

Again, like, what about the dog, I was wondering if it really happened. So I saw that. And so the acorn is run the acorn right there. So that, for me, what was so profound about that experience, and I can come around to maybe what reminded you about that with forgiveness. But you know, we’re all we all have, we’re all encoded like that seed. We’re all encoded with the potentiality of 10,000 forests. One oak tree can produce up to 10,000 forests, by all the seeds that potentially can draw, and plant and grow again. We have a design assignment, I believe, Aristotle calls that are calling where your passions meet the needs in the world, therein lies your calling. And it goes so much deeper than that, of course. Yeah, it’s about what is it that makes us come alive? And why aren’t we live in there? Because that’s, you know, where our potential gift is to the world. And maybe that’s what we all need to be showing up with.

Sande  32:10

So, for me, that’s, you know, the whole nut excuse the expression of the story. The next morning, I was up for a early jetlag stroll, which I was usually up around 4am. And I took a little walk in a quaint little town of us suites them, which is Polish frosh, Auschwitz, through Auschwitz, this polish fraud suites. And over this quaint little walking bridge, I stood right in the middle of with the river going right under me. And the lush greenery up and down the river bed was so pretty, and like I had done throughout the whole town, wondered where Jews would have hidden and I’m thinking, I wonder they hid there. But now, these these, the greenery is all home for new life for critters for birds, that face or putting oxygen in the air. And adjacent interesting. And then all of a sudden, I realized the river I was standing over was the very river that the concentration camps had dumped the ashes, prisoners into height, the height, the evidence. And I’m thinking, Oh, that’s why everything is so lush, because all of that greenery, UPS, all of those banks absorbed all those souls.

Sande  33:34

And then I saw souls in the tree and I trees and I heard this. We choose love. Of course, we choose love. Anything else does not serve our memory. And then I felt just go forth and be in love. And that is that’s a big, tall order to forgive that that remember, well, what are what would they all want us to be what they want us to be bitter down here.

Dennis  34:10

I don’t see how it could be any other way.

Sande  34:13

Yeah. And I heard it from them. And it was so clear. And I can feel it now. Yeah. And the book was actually going to be called acorn rain and Birkenau. That was my working title. Because to me, that’s a culmination. The ability to recognize what was going on in that moment was the culmination of everything leading up to that point in the book.

Dennis  34:41

You know, I think about that, I think about the concept of when when we think of either atheism or agnosticism more or and all the different spiritualities and it all comes down for me that God is Love it’s the actual I know I felt that I have felt God I have felt God because I have loved i that is the it filters through all my own biases and and limitations and all but but I get a chance to feel the right stuff. And the people that have that have that pure mainline of it Buddha or Jesus or any of the other great that you know, they all that what they did was to they were at one with perfect love. And that that love space. So that’s that’s where that’s where I choose to say that we none of us can be agnostic, because we feel love. And that love just we just happen to name it. We put a name on it and say okay, God and all that, but it’s but at its essence, it’s love.

Sande  35:53

I felt love several times during this call. I fall in love all day long, all day long. Especially with strangers. I mean, I mean, yeah, I love I love just watching people. I just feel the love. Yeah, Thomas Thomas Merton, and conjectures from a bystander. He talks about how he falls that he just had an epiphany that was it was the Epiphany, actually, the epiphany that he just loved all these people, and I was tears in their mind.

Clay  36:34

Sande. This just comes up a lot. And and I think it’s even been on the podcast before but this idea of inter generational trauma. And, what, can you talk about that a little bit?

Sande  36:54

Yeah, so thank you, that’s a big one. We are all carrying some baggage. Right? Our cellular memory has been loaded up. And, and a lot of it’s really good stuff, right? We’ve inherited some great stuff and with hair, inherited a lot of stuff that doesn’t serve us and keeps coming back around. And when I was noticing some patterns in my life with relationships, a friend said, You need to go ritualize it kind of go back and look at what what happened to you. Where that same kind of problem first emerged or could have first emerged in ritualize it then call in your ancestors and your angels or whoever you want to call in, and have conversations about it and ask good questions. And so kind of sent me on the path to looking into intergenerational trauma. And then, I found myself co producing a Passover Seder with Dr. Riane, Eisler, and, and Starhawk and some other amazing women and Dr. Rabbi Tirzah. Firestone based upon Rabbi Dr. Rabbi Tirzah, whose book wounds into wisdom, healing, intergenerational Jewish trauma is just significant. It’s just an incredible book, and you don’t have to be Jewish to read it. And in that, I recognized the patterns in my life, were not only coming down at a cellular level, but they were coming down to behaviors to know my mom and dad learned how to respond to certain situations and held certain belief systems and, and so on, that they picked up from their mothers and ancestors as well. So who knows how far back that’s gone. But at a cellular cellular level, we are programmed. You know, I would I would venture to say that as a Jew, I’m going to respond much more differently to the threat of an oligarch, let’s say, then, or a dictator, like Hitler, than somebody who isn’t Jewish, or maybe hasn’t gone through the Aspera. And because that is encoded in who we are, it’s part of our survival mechanism.

Clay  39:23

You know, Sande, it just, it just hit me. When I when I was thinking about Energen generational trauma. I’ve always thought about it. This is something to get over. This is something to get rid of. But yes, that’s true in a lot of senses. But there’s the trauma from our past generations also brings with it wisdom.

Sande  39:49

So alchemize is perhaps how I would put it, optimize it, embody it because it’s who you are. That’s another thing with forgiveness. I don’t want to forget the stuff that hurt me. It’s who I am, it informs me that I choose how, if I’m going to perpetuate the pain or the bliss, right?

Dennis  40:10

I choose the direction to which I stand. I stand either toward the light or away from it. I can choose that.

Sande  40:19

Yeah, yeah, we have choice. And we forget that and you can discover that in liminal space. Oh, yeah. I don’t have to go that way. Oh, yeah, I have what it takes.

Sande  40:30

And that’s and I just, I find that so inspirational. And where are you where you’re going? So? So what is on your what is on your plate forward? Are you going on on tour? With the book are you going on? Now that we’re in in April of 2022? We’re coming out of a time of intro version where we’re all where we’ve had to be inside. And now we’re now we’re getting a chance to rejoin what, what kind of lessons? And what are you taking? Where are you going with this particular piece of work? Right now I’m recording the audio book.

Sande  41:13

And some cases, I’m saying the sentence was over three times.

Dennis  41:21

I’m so glad you’re reading it, because that means that makes such a difference to me when an author reads her book, rather than rather than having having a wonderfully professional actor, it especially when it’s something that is deeply personal is this.

Sande  41:38

hank you, you know, the whole book has been that way for me from the cover to from cover to cover. Honestly, it’s it’s been deeply personal. And I wanted it to be in its highest integrity and authenticity. So although I don’t necessarily care for the sound of my own voice, I been encouraged by many and many saying the same thing as you that I should read it. And I’m glad I am. I’m glad I am

Dennis  42:07

So glad. I’m sorry, isn’t that interesting that we would, we would find the sounds of our own voices, or the seeing ourselves seeing our image in some way. Different I’ve often felt, Sande, that, that, I don’t know if you’ve ever expected a bite of food to taste a certain way. And it just tastes different than what you expect. And it just, it’s just

Sande  42:36

It’s usually when I cook.

Dennis  42:41

Well, but I think that’s the way it is with our boys. Because it goes through our belt goes through it goes through our brain, it’s it’s different in the same way that when we look ourselves in the mirror, we can never lose eye contact. So that when we see ourselves in a picture, it’s a different, it’s from a different perspective. So it makes us uncomfortable. But the more we do that, the more that you have this lovely voice that you can continue and let it be let it resonate with us, the more you’re going to enjoy it, the more that we’re going to get an opportunity to be able to have your to be able to have this this you do that that’s tremendous. It feels like something is shifting something something profound with a human being is is emerging. We talked about this before clay, you know, when we had on the podcast that that like, what would what would an evolutionary imperative be? What would it be when we were shifting from this to our next level of evolutionary state? And how would we be the conduits for that happening? We’re all midwives.

Sande  43:50

And that’s when we all wake up to say, no matter what we do, good are not so good. We’re midwifing this so I would like to believe that we’re we’re going everybody is going to be in their absolute impeccable integrity, showing up in their divine purpose in their divine purpose. Contributing and it’s gorgeous balance, I believe.

Clay  44:13

I agree. I’m going back to a previous comment about looking at ourselves in a mirror.

Sande  44:20

Yeah, that was good.

Sande  44:23

And it occurs to me that I know that I’ve learned a lot about myself the past couple of years because of zoom. Because I can see myself I can watch my mannerisms. And when I record I can hear the cause and the this is in the end so it’s almost like a self correcting or, or getting to know myself from a different vantage point.

Sande  44:55

Yeah, Dad, what about what about? What about appreciating your articulation how beautifully you speak, how kind you are, how the how creative and blessing that that you are. How about that, too?

Clay  45:13

Thank you

Dennis  45:13

Because that’s a really that’s a really good that’s a growth point isn’t it isn’t merely a corrective point, it is very much of an opportunity to be able to see ourselves through the through the lens of graciousness.

Clay  45:26

I feel that, you know, we’ve been talking now, I mean, over 100 podcasts, I think I want to ask you, though, in search of the new, compassionate male. And we’ve been on this journey, I don’t have the answer, but we’re asking the question. And we’re asking it out there. And I’m asking it inside myself. And I can’t help but feel like in the midst of all the chaos, all the trauma, all that’s happening right now, in this liminal space, that really, compassion is just right below the surface. And I’m going to speak about men specifically, that it’s there and it’s begging to get out. And we’re everything that we know is to push it down. And everything we know is falling down. It’s breaking. So with that breaking, the only can come out is our heart and compassion to balance the scale.

Sande  46:32

Well, as a fellow compassion activist. I agree. And it’s, it’s, you know, action. Compassion is, is a noun and a verb. Right, it’s in its we have a compassion nerve in our body. Our body is wired, as we heard from Jim Doty, our wire our body is wired for compassion. It’s who we are. And we’ve been denying it. Exactly. And it’s, it’s healthy for us. And it keeps us not only alive, and in community, that probably, I shouldn’t even say probably helps us live longer. I agree. I think every condition,

Clay  47:13

I think compassion could almost be considered the, the rubber band that has been stretched so far in the binary thinking that’s happening there. But this undercurrent of, of compassion that that rubber band  not going to break. It’s going to hold and it will bring us back together again.

Sande  47:32

Yeah, well, I’m seeing it happen. That’s sprout, we can see.

Dennis  47:37

That it is and so if, what if what’s going on now, Sande, and play if this, if this seed covering is what is appears is the chaos out there that is happening right now. But what is going to emerge as that seed covering gets down, that’s, that’s, it feels so strong. I so agree with you, Sande, that, that this is a process of subtraction, not addition, that we’re actually that I had our essence we are love, our we are we have this compat this essence of who we are that we have put these structures on top of. But as we remove them, as we peel this back, we get to the essence of who we are, and that’s beautiful. I mean, I I look into the eyes of people, and I see so much courage, and so much kindness and so much I agree with you about the strangers because when you can just look at someone’s face, even with a mask on and just smile at them and this they light up. I know it’s going to the world is going to be alright.

Clay  48:50

It’s so interesting. With the mask for me. I’ve learned to read eyes more than than before. And I’ve noticed I can sense or I can see pain, I can see happiness in the eyes. It before it was in the whole context of the whole body. But just looking there and it’s magical.

Sande  49:20

It’s it’s wild, crazy time. It really is an exciting, beautiful time to be on this planet. And I feel a huge responsibility to be in, in service to it. And and finding the courage through practicing the skills finding the courage to with every breath, showing up the best I can and I fall flat on my face sometimes I wasn’t the nicest I could be today with this customer service person on the phone. I apologize but like what was coming out, but we’re all human. But one thing we can be sure of that we have control over. And that is our integrity. And I can’t say this word enough Integrity and Authenticity. And I consciousness is rising. And we’re just, we’re just going into a different animal. I believe.

Dennis  50:17

I do, too. I do, too. Oh, Sande, thank you so much for this time, this will, I’m going to wrap up my portion of this, I’m sure that there’ll be some wonderful after show that will be going. But I want to thank you for your, for your presence. And thank you for the opportunity to to experience you in real time. Because there is that there is an authenticity, I feel like I’m seeing the I’m seeing a soul in progress.

Sande  50:57

Thank you. Yeah, we all have an opportunity to free our soul. And that’s the only way to do it to live in our bliss.

Dennis  51:06

Thank you, Clay. Thank you, Sande. And thank you, everyone who got an opportunity to join us on this episode of In Search of the New Compassionate male. We’ll see everyone back here soon.

Sande  51:20

That was so much fun. You’re right. It was the funnest conversation?

Sande  51:23

Well, I tell you, I’ve been so looking forward to this. And I’m serious. I’ve the book has really moved me.

Sande  51:37

And you move me so think or even?

Clay  51:41

Well, it’s it’s a it’s an inspiration for me. It takes incredible courage to share on the level that you shared. You hit it right on the nose. And you fold, this wasn’t I didn’t read this as a vanity book, right. I really felt like You wove your experiences into something to share. But your experiences were the kind of the backdrop to the real message.

Sande  52:17

Yeah. And you know what, what’s going? It’s so not like, knowing what was appropriate to put in the book. I just listen to my body. If if there was something rubbing me and I don’t think I would have this is another answer to to Genesis question about what am I noticing. There was a faint irritation going on behind my head with some things in the book and I’m like, Okay, I gotta go back. And either reread it and calm my nerves or whatever it is calm the calm the waters, or pull it out and see if I even need it. Yeah. And on more than one occasion, it required me to remove it completely. I’m like, Okay, I don’t need to tell that much of my story, or that’s not relevant. It’s not interesting. It’s getting way too personal. It’s not relevant to the story, you know, and it was all about listening to my body. And what felt right and what was there a rub.

Clay  53:17

Learning how to listen to my body is such a big deal. I’ve got I’ve got happy mad, glad and sad. Right? And, even that is in my head. What is your body feel when you’re sad? When we feel sad? No, no, no. What? What’s the visceral feeling? What is your body doing? Right? And it’s been this past couple of years. And well, I mean, since you and I’ve gotten to know each other, where I become more conscious of that. Oh, I’m feeling of my neck is stiff. You know? Oh, those are feelings.

Sande  53:59

Oh, yeah. And I’ve lost weight. Thinking. Am I full? I’m full. I don’t need any more. And I love to eat I lose weight so I can eat so out or, or I’m either I’m not hungry. Or I’m full. And I I you know, make my body happy. Oh, my earring. My earring I put on these earrings isn’t funny. I ended up not having to take them both off. But my earring was hurting me and I’m like, Okay, I only need to wear it for an hour. So, like, screws out. My ear hurts my I gotta love my body before my vanity. That’s why I only had one earring on when I came to the club and my hair was down.

Clay  54:44

Well and just learning that. It sounds so basic. It’s so fundamental.

Sande  54:52

It really is that easy. I mean, how are we built? We were built with this. We were built with this perfect machine. With an alert system, I think I use that expression. We have an alert system. You know, paying attention to my thoughts. My throat chakra is a big one for me. I once had one of the ambassadors of the charter for compassion women and girls. She had a, she and I had our own conversation. And she goes, she was Sande, unique, and she was a seer and you know really dialed in and she was you need to get yourself a blue stone. My daughter actually wrapped it in gold, so I could wear it on her necklace. You gotta get yourself a blue stunk as blue as the chakra up for the throat. And you need to meditate with it right here and ask yourself what aren’t what wants to be said that you’re not seeing? Or why aren’t you speaking your truth? Or why don’t you feel worthy enough in your voice? That was huge for me. So I’m always paying attention my throat. Is there’s something I have to say. Why aren’t the words flowing?

Clay  56:10

Yeah, you’ll get a kick out of this after my surgery in 2007. One of the first trips out that I went on was to a rock shop. And I don’t remember why we did it. But we went there looking around. And I was trying to figure out I didn’t know anything about crystals or any of that stuff. And I was picking through stuff. I don’t know what to get here. And this woman happened to be a standard this is this a will. What do you what do you what, what’s up, I said, Well, I’ve had this and this and this and I got this big scar and it’s done. You know? She said, Oh, rose quartz. And so I got some pieces of Rose Quartz. You’re gonna laugh but I taped those to my chest.

Sande  56:55

Oh, I’m not gonna laugh.

Clay  56:58

Yeah, I taped them to my chest and the healing this the scar that was forming. It went away. And I’ve just got this little line. And there’s something to that I read somewhere. It’s been years. It’s in one of my journals. Somebody identified 25 senses as opposed to six. And the one that comes to mind is the sense of what our eyes feel in light. That that’s a that we feel and different kinds of aching. It’s different than if I smashed my finger. You know, if you have bright light hits you in your eyes, you know there was a whole range of them and I was wondering when you were talking about the throat chakra if the throat chakra in itself is a different sense, that can be put in the category of taste smell.

Sande  58:05

Oh. Or is my is one my throat chakra is activated. Is it different than when my Sacral Chakra is activated? Or my whatever other chakras could be activated? Yeah. Oh, that there? There’s more. Wow, that’s really interesting. And as a matter of fact, on my kitchen table conversations for liminal Odyssey I’m having somebody come and talk about chakras and yeah.

Clay  58:38

Wow, I I want to enjoy editing this one.

Clay  58:43

Check out the latest episode of insert to the new compassionate mail on your favorite podcast station.

EP111: Don Frick – Ernest Shackleton – Servant Leadership (Part 3)

EP111: Don Frick – Ernest Shackleton – Servant Leadership (Part 3)

EP111: Don Frick – Ernest Shackleton – Servant Leadership (Part 3)

On the day when he first read Greenleaf’s essay The Servant as Leader in 1986, Don Frick decided to dedicate the rest of his career to understanding and teaching Greenleaf’s ideas about servant leadership. Since then, he has written books and essays about servant leadership—including Greenleaf’s biography—made presentations, conducted workshops, taught graduate seminars, and consulted with corporations on the principles of servant leadership. He is currently working on another book that offers details about how various organizations have implemented servant leadership. Before encountering Greenleaf’s work, Don engaged in multiple careers, including: managing departments at a university and museum of art; university teaching; television, radio, and film writing, production, and performance; trainer; specialist in advertising and marketing for Fortune 500 companies, plus an entrepreneur. His formal education includes a B.S. in Education, Master of Divinity, and PhD in Leadership and Organizational Studies.

 

EP108: Dr. Riane Eisler – From “Domination to Partnership”

EP108: Dr. Riane Eisler – From “Domination to Partnership”

Riane Eisler is a social systems scientist, cultural historian, futurist, and attorney whose research, writing, and speaking has transformed the lives of people worldwide. Her newest work, Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future, co-authored with anthropologist Douglas Fry, shows how to construct a more equitable, sustainable, and less violent world based on Partnership rather than Domination.

Dr. Eisler is president of the Center for Partnership Systems (CPS), dedicated to research and education, Editor-in-Chief of the Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies, an online peer-reviewed journal at the University of Minnesota that was inspired by her work, keynotes conferences nationally and internationally, has addressed the United Nations General Assembly, the U.S. Department of State, and Congressional briefings, has spoken at corporations and universities worldwide on applications of the partnership model introduced in her work, and is Distinguished Professor at Meridian University, which offers PhDs and Master’s degrees based on Eisler’s Partnership-Domination social scale.

 

David Loye, Riane Eisler’s beloved husband and partner, died of Covid during the night of January 24, 2022. This was two days after they celebrated their 45th Anniversary. We invite you to join Riane Eisler in honoring and remembering David.

Transcript:

Dr. Eisler  00:07

No ordinary Soviets had to stand in line for toothbrushes. I mean for so we were served caviar. And we were in a very fancy hotel in the four years of our suite was a grand piano. And it was like what is following the same domination economic is the connection between what happens in childhood between gender between family and what happens in the state or tribe. So that he, a couple of years ago, radically reduce the penalties for family violence.

Clay  00:53

Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay Boykin calm for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male. Hello

Dennis  01:17

World. It’s me Dennis and Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this particular podcast and I’m here with the founder clay Boykin. Hello clay.

Clay  01:28

Hi, Dennis. I’m thrilled today to have with us Dr. Riane Eisler. Dr. Islur is a cultural historian, attorney, a futurist, a social system scientist and author of I forgot how many books but some of the ones that you may recognize off the top is the chalice in the blade sacred pleasures, the real wealth of nations and the book that came out in 2019, nurturing our humanity, how domination and partnership shaped our brains lives in future. So Dr. Islur welcome.

Dr. Eisler  02:05

Thank you. And thank you Clay for starters, for the wonderful article that is actually on our website, Center for partnership.org. And for all the work that those of you are doing to really help men be human in the full sense of the word because it’s not only women who are challenging the old stereotypes, but men and that is such an important part of what I call the movement from nomination to partnership. So thank you.

Dennis  02:53

You’re You’re You’re so welcome. Because this is what whatever I know that that we’re going to be able to work our way through this. This has to be a partnership, it has to be a collaboration. It has to be synergistic. One plus one is greater than two, and we’ve lived for so long in this zero sum. economic reality and that’s not how economics works as far as I understand it. And you’re talking about the new economy, how we’re going to create this and work in your work in economics and your your thoughts systems about the partnerships. Could you talk a little about this and what’s on your mind and heart?

Dr. Eisler  03:34

Let me start have Seaford may start with, on a more personal note, please. Because I have a great deal of passion for this work. And that passion is actually rooted deeply in my own early life as a child refugee with my parents, Nazi Europe, from Vietnam, where I was born, and very early in my life. And this is really directly now related to your question. I began to ask questions that I think most of us have asked at some point in our lives, does it have to be this way? When we humans have such a tremendous capacity, both women and men or consciousness for caring for creativity? Why has there been so much insensitivity, so much cruelty so much destructive test and start to do my multidisciplinary cross cultural trends historical study? To answer that question until much later, but I as you mentioned, Clay, I’m an assistive person and I’m interested in what kind of society will support our end No, I’m assuming capacity, as I said, we’re carrying the consciousness for creativity, rather than because we obviously also have laws, then we’re insensitivity, cruelty destructive. And in the course of this work, I, of course, look at our past that are present, and most importantly, at the possibilities for our future, including our economic possibilities with this book that came out of this study was the chalice in the blade. And then came sacred pleasure. And then a number of other books. And then I realized that I could not answer the questions of my childhood, by looking through the conventional lenses of capitalist versus socialist, west, north versus south, religious versus secular, etc. And I kept seeing these two configurations, the domination system and the partnerships this. And I then applied the, these two systems configurations, to the study of economics, which goes right to your question was the book called The Real wealth of nations. And something that really struck me is that the mindset that we have inherited, is so strange. It’s really our heritage from earlier more rigid domination times. And it is to the values of most important human work, which is the work of caring, what people are curious, and caring for our natural life support systems. And if you look at those, the work of Smith and Marx, you see that for them, this work was to be done for free by a woman in a male controlled household. Yes. And, you know, when we were supposed to take care of children of the sick, keep a clean and healthy, warm environment, which of course then translates into keeping a clean and healthy planetary environment.

Dr. Eisler  07:41

There is nothing in either capitalist or socialist theory about caring for nature, nature, as far as closeness and marks were concerned, is simply there to be exploited. That’s it. And as I said, the work of caring for people starting in first, that’s women’s work, be done in a male controlled for free, the male controlled household, and they call it reproductive rather than productive. So if you fast forward to GNP, that is what it reflects. It’s an economic ground, that simply excludes the three life sustaining sectors, without which we would not be here, without which there would be no economy, the natural economy, the volunteer community, economy, and the household. So when you’re asked me this question, it’s impossible to add to answer it in terms of the old debate that so many people are still engaged in capitalism versus socialism or communism. Frankly, a colleague of mine calls these old categories weapons of mass destruction. Our consciousness,

Dennis  09:10

yes, and one of the things that I love about what you talked about duck price for was about how the, we measure GDP, and we do not take into account so much that the measurements are way off how and I love that if we were to take if we were to rearrange our rearrange what we measure that would account for taking care of our humanity and raising our children taking care of our planet, doing the volunteerism and have that, that that would very quickly give us an entirely different measure,

Dr. Eisler  09:51

completely studies a recent Australian study of the economic value now And then, you know, let’s talk in those terms of the work done for free, the household of caring for people, including children. But if that were included, it would constitute 50% 50% reported by Australian GDP. But as I said, GDP follows the same very limited approach of both Marx and Smith, even though both actually challenged some elements of what I call domination, economics, because it goes way back, it isn’t just neoliberalism, which is really a replay or trickle down economics, you know, it’s sort of a replay of this futile idea that goes on bottom, should content themselves with the scraps, right, dropping from the opulent tables of clothes on top, to Chinese emperors, into passions and to sheiks and to it really. Yes, I mean, it’s deeply rooted. And it is domination, economics, that we really are addressing this idea of top down, trickle down. Exactly, because

Dennis  11:27

we’re seeing that we’re seeing that so much aren’t we try?

Clay  11:31

Yes. Gosh, I was just watching the news before we got onto this podcast. And they were talking about the huge palace that has been built off the books for Putin, hundreds of some odd 1000 square feet, just incredible place and underground, hockey, you know, field and, and so forth. And it’s speaks to exactly what you’re talking about. Dr. Islur?

Dr. Eisler  12:04

Oh, absolutely. Then, of course, I mean, I remember when I was invited to by Nordic women for peace, to miss them on a march to unlearning God. And they had previously done a peace march on Washington, DC. And the class structure was so clear, you know, ordinary Soviets had to stand in line for toothbrushes, I mean, for soap. But we were served caviar. And we were in a very fancy hotel. In the four years of our suite was a grand piano. It was like what is following the same domination, economic. But it’s interesting. And that really takes me to the configuration of the partnership of domination system. We recognize something that is inherent to the analysis of the systems, or systems analysis of the partnership, domination, social scale, because it’s always a better a good way. Nice the connection between what happens in childhood, between gender between family, and what happens in the state or tribe, so that he, a couple of years ago, radically reduce the penalties for family violence. Oh, I always recognize it. If you look at the Taliban, which is religious, and Eastern, or if you look at ISIS, the same thing or for men is Iran. Or if you look at Hitler’s backseat Germany, work for that matter Salus, former Soviet Union, they were always into strengthening or maintaining the kind of family but it is one of the real foundations are a highly punitive, rigidly male dominated authoritarian. It’s simple once you start looking for it, but we have, especially those of us who aren’t good educated in higher education, right. We’ve been taught, I mean, how I remember one day, sort of waking up, is it from, from what I today call the domination trends, and realizing that in all my years of so called Higher Education, there has hardly been anything by about or for people like me, women, such as for children, where we’ve been somewhere buried in so Domestic course or some family relations course is beginning to change the little bit. But not that much we were taught that the majority of humanity and anything pertaining to it to women and children, is not really important enough to be included in what we are taught is important knowledge and tools.

Dennis  15:27

Were very, this, this is part of our mission. Because we believe we, we understand that we cannot, that this is not sustainable. We know that and so as we are in search for the new compassionate male, we are in search of that within ourselves, then both of us are in a journey of our own awakening through our own conscious and unconscious biases. Because from from our standpoint, from a we know that this is not working clay, you talked about that, that we men, the roles that we are assigned are very, all very often completely at odds with who we think we are, yet we we have to fit into some stereotype to be able to do it. You were talking so much about about trusting men clay, yes, as a Marine, Dr. Islur he was a Marine and went through all of the all of the the high, high concept male archetypes that that you would you would consider coming through this process.

Clay  16:37

You know, thanks, Dennis. There are many things that I learned. You know, one was that leadership is about servant leadership, even on the core. And there’s an undercurrent of compassion. And I didn’t have a name for it until out after I was out of the core, and began to look back and realize how even in situations like that, even in harm’s way that men taking care of men range taking care of Marines. John 1513, Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend. That’s all compassion. And what genocide are the past couple of years? We believe that there’s an undercurrent, it’s men, compassionate man out there. And I would like to believe that that that momentum is growing, is rising. And I don’t see it out there on the news or anything, but when I’m talking with men and white men circle and so forth. It’s there. And, you know, my hope is that it’s able to really surface.

Dr. Eisler  18:07

and this can only surface if enough of us including men, like you and Dennis, that help men to give up the sport domination. Yes, real masculinity of not being like a woman. Because as long as we have the stereotype, that being like a woman is to be compassionate to be caring to be really gone violent. When you have this this problem that men face, I think that we are at a time when this very rigidly binary stereotype stereotypical which is necessary for domination systems because yes, later, but if you don’t have these rigid stereotypes, how can you rank code masculinity? Over femininity? Yes, men over women. But this said, Men, Judo here we’re talking about with thinks nothing of sending his, you know, his his soldiers to be killed. I mean, for millenia. Men in Domination systems that had to give nothing less than their lives because some guy on top like Putin wanted more in real estate.

Clay  19:39

Yes. Young men fighting old men’s wars. Yeah. You know, the one thing that came up on a podcast just last year, we were talking about in terms of solar and lunar energy, and it was Howard Tyson. He said, you know, play Think about it this way, you know, we all have this energy, we all have the solar and the lunar, we all have the male and the female aspects to ourselves. Think about it like this. The lunar leads in the solar executes. And I thought to myself, no, wait a second. But then I thought back and back to the core. This is where leadership comes from. And so if we men are out there, thinking we can leave just from the head, cut off it and not acknowledge the essence of who we totally are, then we’re really making a big mistake. And so to me, it’s this integration of head and art, it’s not one or the other. It’s the integration that that is a must.

Dr. Eisler  20:52

Well, I think that this is a good starting point. Because you are of course, still talking about domination archetypes here. The veil is equated with reason, I think of how reasonable our leaders Thank you for saying that. I so appreciate you saying that, please. It’s no young does this use was a mess when it came to gender stereotypes. I mean, his UNIMIN analysts? Yes. I’m the mus is active is Bula, you know, protagonist, and what is the Anima? It’s either man’s inspiration or nemesis. Right? Completely relational. And the truth is that we’re all relational to each other. And then one of the problems that men in Domination systems have had is that their models for masculinity have been that you have to excel you have to accomplish, you have to, and really, you know, I hear people talking about the problem is ego ism. And I have to laugh because women weren’t supposed to have an ego.

Dennis  22:16

Oh, not the women. I know. I know, some pretty powerful women that goodness.

Dr. Eisler  22:23

Now you do. But you know, the old stereotype women were not protagonist.

Dennis  22:31

How did you how did you as a young teen, as powerful as you are doctor as I mean, I because I feel it your your, your intellect, and your heart and your drive and is so strong? How did you as a as a teenager, and how did you react to the world? How did that? How did that what was that experience like?

Dr. Eisler  23:00

This night? No transformation is possible because I have, I have experienced, okay, I was kind of a mess as a teen. I mean, I wanted desperately to belong, because I’ve, I’ve been an outsider all my life. And, you know, I was obviously cast out from as an outsider. Before I was born, I was an outsider growing up in the industrial slums of nirvana. I was an outsider here in the United States. When I came, I even pledged a sorority, which I then disaffiliated from, but I had no gender consciousness. I mean, I, I have to tell you, and that lasted into my 30s. Okay. I when I graduated UCLA law school, I was looking for a part time job with a entertainment law firm. That’s where my head was. It wasn’t, by the way. I mean, what it’s about is massaging people’s egos and counting, helping them count their money, or increase their money, but the head of the firm called me in one day to compliment me on some work I had done. And you know what he said to me, and he meant it as a compliment. But what’s much worse is I took it as a compliment. You don’t even great job to don’t think like a woman. And I took it as a compliment. But this is the kind of thinking of being socialized, you bet. And so it wasn’t really until I sort of woke up. List domination trends My 30s that went along with 1000s of other women.

Dennis  25:07

Yes, yeah. And What years were these?

Dr. Eisler  25:10

What years were about the 60s, the 60. So this was during Exactly. So this, this was when we first began in the Women’s Liberation Movement here in the United States when it wouldn’t when it was, I mean, it had begun. And of course, it was earlier than that. But when we began to get some momentum and going toward that, and getting the era started to started to be passed,

Dr. Eisler  25:34

well, and I wrote the only last paper where on the proposed Equal Rights Amendment, it’s called the equal rights handbook was published by A, but it’s still available online. And unfortunately, it’s still relevant. But I really want to return now to the the intimate partnership aspects of my life, please, my second word for the love of my life. My husband, David Loy. We’re together for 45 years, and who recently died, and I will be left without him. But he was a caring man that he worked with me on the equal rights handled this way to Africa, to the Robie conference UN Conference on Women in writing a deep dive. And caring is not a human characteristic for goodness sake. And the fact that it’s been so, so suppressed in our culture, especially in men, but also in some women, we all know that no caring men and we know women who are not caring. And we know that people who are stuck in these gender stereotypes. And by the way, the study that I cite, in nurturing our humanity is very interesting. People who voted for Trump, the US election, one thing they had in common was not economic hardship. I mean, that was okay. But two things were the very interesting around which fit was the configuration, which I really have to tell you about at this summit. was one thing was a horror of women who stepped outside the domination stereotype of femininity. In other words, people like Hillary Clinton, people, you know, women who were assertive. Yes. But the other thing, which is fascinating, and it’s so much with the configuration of the combination of partnership systems, is that in times in terms of what they were trying to teach their children and help their children realize, wasn’t curiosity wasn’t empathy. It was really more obedience, conformity. And of course, it makes sense, doesn’t it? And women have become many women. I mean, look at 70 million people voted for Mr. Trump. Yes, many of them were female. They have internalized this, which takes me to the configuration which I do want to share at some point, because

Dennis  28:53

I want to I know that it broke my heart, Doctor eyes or when because I, I had I believed that Hillary Clinton was going to be that every every woman would secretly who was who was outwardly Republican would secretly go into the, into the ballot box and, and it was the it was the 20th anniversary of my what my wife and I that night, November the eighth, and we and we had our celebration all set, and my heart was broken. I mean, I couldn’t believe that women would not stand up. And then I said, I must, I must not have this right. There must be there. There’s something I’m missing.

Dr. Eisler  29:40

Well, I think that it just shows that what we’re talking about is not an issue of women against men or men against women. It really is an issue of changing the underlying worldview. And was it our economic system Family Systems, you know, I’ve mentioned already, I mean, the trend towards for example, authoritative, non violent rather than authoritarian and violent parent thing is very important partnership trends. The trend towards non binary, flexible, fluid gender roles. That’s the trend. We have to recognize this. And it’s very hard for people because if you look at the modern social movements, they’ve altered actually, the progressive social movements have all challenged the same thing, a tradition of domination, you know, whether it is a movement against the so called divinely ordained, right of kings to or of men, divinely ordained, right? Again, men to rule over women and children are of a quote superior divinely ordained that your your superior is to rule over inferior was all the way to the environmental movement. Challenging are ones hallowed conquest, and domination of nature. But they focus on trying to dismantle the top of the combination of politics and economics is conventional. And pretty much a secondary to women’s movements with children’s rights, movement, spirituality, movement, etc. All of which are there, you know, the foundations, and they were domination systems that kept rebuilding themselves, like in Russia, that authoritarian, punitive, rigidly male dominated family is still the ideal No. Really change

Dennis  31:59

where you are going to talk doctor about the configuration in the reconfiguration? Could you bring that to us?

Dr. Eisler  32:05

I’d like to do that. Because as Einstein said, we cannot solve problems with the same consciousness that created Thank you. And language is a very, very important that linguistic psychologists have long told us that the categories provided by a language. And this is particularly true of social categories. They channel our thinking. So it’s almost impossible to see a culture. So if you look at the conventional categories, for one thing, is kind of silly, that people don’t seem to notice when they start arguing about religious versus secular, Eastern versus Western or capitalist versus socialist, that there have been repressive violence regressive cultures in all these categories, and continue to be and they also don’t notice that these categories either marginalize or ignore or say they should be subservient, nothing less than the majority of humanity, women and children. Yes, now, we cannot have whole systems change, without taking into account these foundational relations, which Neuroscience tells us that what children observe or experience in their early years, shapes, nothing less than the architecture of art. So I’m proposing that we need to change our language about societies and start talking about shifting our cultures not from capitalism to socialism or from socialism to capitalism or not left to right or from right to left or whatever. But of shifting from domination to partnership, and there are four core components of these systems of figuration. One is a top down also rich area, structure in both the family and the state or tribe, the economics, etc. Okay. The second part of the figuration is something that is marginalized or ignored gender relations, and this is where you both come in, because we domination oriented societies invariably rank one form of humanity. male form over the female. Yes, and that is a template for you. equating difference beginning with this fundamental difference in form in our species with either superiority or inferiority, dominating or being dominated, being served or serving. So it’s a template for indoor versus outdoor thinking and you move to the partnership side, and you can see it in much of our prehistory. I wrote extensively about that in many of my blocks, because the evidence is overwhelming that for most of our human cultural evolution for 1000s of years, we oriented more to the partnership side and that the domination system shift occurred in the mainstream of culture will be about 5000 years ago,

Dennis  35:58

yes, with the with the creation of private property with a concept.

Dr. Eisler  36:04

Not necessarily there are many, many theories about certainly technology, including agriculture. So, they turn towards the domination side, at a certain point, but the early agrarian societies, like shfm, Jolla, for example, in Turkey, in the plains of Turkey, which is the largest Neolithic site ever excavated, was more egalitarian, by the size of the houses by the types of grave was more gender balance. Ian Hodder with the archaeologists, who excavated most recently there has an article in Scientific American about really being born male or female, did not affect your status in life. And of course, there are no signs of distractions through warfare, or over a spy was yours.

Clay  37:16

Help me Dr. Eisler. What What was the timeframe that he was excavating? What what timeframe in the history was

Dr. Eisler  37:26

about? From about? I think about 6000. Before the Common Era, okay. Onward. But these were very early farming settlements. This was a huge town in the back exactly.

Dennis  37:44

The way it was. It was a it was an amazing economy, wasn’t it? I mean, it was very.

Dr. Eisler  37:51

It was an amazing economy. I mean, we’ve been told so many false stories, stories that work, this notion that there are only two possibilities for us, we either dominate or were dominated. Think of the categories that are gender specific. matriarchy, patriarchy. I mean, yeah. Either women rule or men rule. The fathers or mothers. There is no partnership alternative.

Dennis  38:21

Is there any word for it? Well,

Dr. Eisler  38:24

I coined the word guy, let me say it again. Di Lundy, Dinah, for a woman under a strong man and L in English for linking. wonder, why don’t you go back to me reading the chalice and the blade let me continue with the configuration because the amount of abuse and violence is very, very different in the Domination and the partnership system and to actually see the art changing radically. I mean, art is a symbolic language, you know? And if you It’s fascinating but if you really leave behind you know the conventional thinking of the linear evolution No. Evolution like everything else wasn’t even there. But anyway, domination systems require a high degree of abuse and violence all the way the wife and child breeding grounds, lynchings warfare, to maintain themselves because how else you maintain these rankings with men over man man or woman, race, civil race, religion, religion, etc. Partnership side yeah, there is some violence people lose it sometimes. But it isn’t built into this. And that makes a huge difference and of course, the forest part store Are we are we I mean, we’ve inherited the story that well, whether it’s selfish genes or original sin, the same story is that, yes, they fight each other. But with simply the same story, we’re bad, we have to be controlled.

Clay  40:26

So I’m just testing my understanding, you’re talking about the four being the family in childhood relations,

Dr. Eisler  40:34

then I’m talking about structure, structure. And I’m making the, the connection immediately between the structure in the family and the structure in this later drive. And I can give you a contemporary example, the countries that today ranked highest in the happiness reports, as well as very high in the world. Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness reports, etc, are nations that have moved more to the partnership side are the European nations like Norway, Finland, Sweden. And they have, I mean, let’s look at the partnership structure here for a moment, because it’s not only in the family, but also in the Slater tribe. That is where democratic, they’re not socialists, they have more caring policies, because of the second component, because the status of women has risen, so that half approximately, of their national legislature is female. And as the Status of Women rises, men will no longer feel that this is an integral connection between changing male masculine stereotypes, and the devaluation, the hidden system of gendered values that we’ve been living with, and are trying to leave behind. Because as the Status of Women rises, men no longer feel it’s such a threat to their identities, to their status to their masculinity, to also embrace caring policies. So these nations at universal health care, very good quality, childcare, accessible, well paid, government supported. They have very generous paid parental leave for both mothers and fathers. And that’s precisely why we have such a successful business sector. You know, I, it makes me wonder, where, where’s the what flips the switch? What would cause them to begin to make this change? There’s many theories about it. One is the agriculture theory. And private property, which I certainly in some places, maybe it happened that way. But in Europe, in the area surrounding the Mediterranean, there is mounting evidence, including DNA studies showing that it was through armed invasion from the fringe areas of our globe, where as a matter of fact, the shift from gathering hunting was not to agriculture with to birdie. And herding, as we know from problem with cattle today is not a sustainable way of really, technologically speaking, it’s a lousy technology, because it depletes without giving back. But in these societies, for a number of reasons, and I deal with that in some detail, in my book sake with pleasure, which is kind of a heresies with it, there’s a message behind that. Well, you have it, of course I have it. Like you remember, I mean, like the bonobos, which are one, you know, one, one chapter in there. Yes. Our closest primate relatives, in difference is the common Chimp, but they’re much more partnership oriented and they share leisure. Yes, food, they share sex. I mean, it’s a completely different social organization. And we have that capacity As shown by these millennia. So we have to change our stories

Dennis  45:09

are when you look at your grandchildren, Dr. Eisler for do you have? Does this bring you hope? Do you see a difference in their consciousness? And and what is going on with them? What what is your sense about what’s going on in the, in the race mind consciousness of humanity as you look out through the eyes of your grandchildren?

Dr. Eisler  45:33

Well, I think my grandchildren are very aware of them, that we need new thinking. I mean, they’re looking for it. But it’s really interesting because, you know, I used to be even I still occasionally still do, or give a lot of keynotes to major conferences. Yes. And people buy into this, when they hear me, pulled back by the culture. So it’s our job. And really, we owe it to our children and generations to come to start using the terms, partnership system domination. Because if we don’t, people will say, Well, what do you mean by that? Or what do you mean by a caring economics of partners? People will ask, but it’s up to the, to those of us who are agents of cultural change like you to, to start using different tools, and to start helping people to see connections that are made invisible by the domination chance.

Dennis  46:52

I’m so glad to hear you say that because one of my quests in this life is to ask people and to really understand what is enough? Have you set that number by will ask a person have you set a number that you would know at least when you hit it when some economic or or or other marker would be hit you ago? Okay. Yeah, I’ve got it I’ve got because I don’t hear it being asked, and I don’t. And that’s just the mindset.

Dr. Eisler  47:24

Well, you know, in nurturing our humanity, there are studies showing that in societies where there is a lot of accumulation of the top, which by the way, domination economics creates artificial scarcity. I siphoning resources to top five cleaning services into Parliament’s weapons wars, and also by failing to invest in caring for people starting at service. I mean, children, especially for our post industrial knowledge, service economy, our most important assets for goodness sakes,

Dennis  48:06

I love that doctor because when, when we talk, when I talk to friends of mine who describe themselves as conservative, I go, What a great word to conserve you, you don’t drive your car and never take it into the into the mechanic and put oil and take care of it. We take care. What is this wonderful word conservative? Why don’t what our what are we going to conserve and nurture and support?

Dr. Eisler  48:35

Well, but for the, quote, conservative mind, and there are studies in virtually our humanity showing that actually are very structure of our brains. People who consider themselves very conservative, have very rigid brains based on denial. And it’s related to the development of part of the brain that is not as well developed, as in people who are less quote, conservative, conservative and liberal, are pointless words for me. Just make us fight each other. Dr. Islur. While you’re talking about the brain, you made the point in a recent podcast that the pleasure centers light up in our brain when we care and share more than more than when we dominate. So so when I go win the football game, and I’m spiking, the football app feels great. But test not as great as feeling that I would my pleasure centers would light up when I’m caring and sharing is that that is EPS salutely True. And you know, many studies have shown that people are happier when they give. That’s what makes us feel good. But, but this empathy, this hearing has to be either suppressed or compartmentalized. So it only applies to the in group. In Domination systems, whether that in group, right, it’s the in group of code mankind, female, other or divided states, whether it’s whites versus blacks in the Middle East, whether it’s Shia versus Sunni, or Sunni versus Shia, it doesn’t really matter. And other rising, right. Yeah. Other right. And that’s really with that very basic model. Yeah. It’s not coincidental what I spoke about earlier, the correlation between wanting to either maintain or impose this is the punitive widget vo dominated authoritarian family, and what kind of regime?

Clay  51:16

Dennis, remember when we talked with Dr. Doty the other week, and one of the key points that was made was that compassion, empathy and compassion is, is innate, it’s part of our DNA, and it’s got to be nurtured. It has to be nurtured. And that’s, of course, the whole point of I mean, if there is a central point, and there are many points in nurturing our humanity, it is that it isn’t a question of genes. This is a question of gene expression. And that happens to action with our environment, especially in the first years, we can change. I mean, people can do did

Dennis  52:02

a good doctor, I mean, you look at your evolution.

Dr. Eisler  52:06

I had a whole evolution. And David was really part of that evolution. And part of my journey. I can I can honestly say that, on a personal level partnership is just so wonderful is so pleasure.

Dennis  52:27

Doctor, thank you for sharing David with us and bring him along in this. It’s very, he’s very palpable to me just in how you how you have shared how he is part of you today. And as as strong as as he is sitting right, sitting right within you.

Dr. Eisler  52:49

Well, they did some very important work. Because he wrote me tons of poetry, which I think is very good. I published a book called 100 days of love, this 100 days that we were together for a day. Oh, that’s another story. But he wrote he thought it was a pioneer in retelling the story of Darwin’s evolution, because at Davis word, Darwin has been used by the domination system is this 800 pound gorilla, to say, hey, what matters is, you know, the survival of the fittest was the fittest defined as the meanest right? And in his book on human evolution, Descent of Man, Darwin explicitly said, at the level of human evolution, random selection, and all these other mechanisms may fade in importance. What is important now is culture and love. He wrote so many times about love, and he actually apologized that for using the term survival of the fittest, which wasn’t history, it was a term. But anyway, so I highly recommend David’s book, Darwin’s last theory,

Dennis  54:20

Doctor, thank you so much for giving us this opportunity just to spend some time with you. And to know the I guess, before I want to go if you if you could just tell me some of the VISTAs some of the things that curiosities that you’re going to be exploring in the near future,

Dr. Eisler  54:39

and I will continue to do my teaching. And by the way, on a center for partnership.org you can find a way to really take a self paced course called Changing our story, changing our lives and up Do it for groups and then you get to own the for videos and to use them yourself in your presentations as well as all of the resources on my list that I am now working on giving background to David’s extensive poetry in a book that I calling tentatively called for what was the title of one of his times, which is yet love remains.

Dennis  55:31

God is how precious thank you for giving us this time today for spending your time here on this planet with us what we do, clay has Shepard this over 100 podcasts and when he said that we were going to have you it was like this was the ice this was the cherry on the ice cream sundae of our of our time to be able to be able to spend time with you and the grace that you brought to us and that you brought to the planet Dr. Eyes for thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Eisler  56:04

Thank you goes with a very very good for being you.

Dennis  56:13

Thank you world and thank you everyone and we will see you next time on in search of the new compassionate mayor.

56:21

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