EP108: Dr. Riane Eisler – From “Domination to Partnership”

EP108: Dr. Riane Eisler – From “Domination to Partnership”

Riane Eisler is a social systems scientist, cultural historian, futurist, and attorney whose research, writing, and speaking has transformed the lives of people worldwide. Her newest work, Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future, co-authored with anthropologist Douglas Fry, shows how to construct a more equitable, sustainable, and less violent world based on Partnership rather than Domination.

Dr. Eisler is president of the Center for Partnership Systems (CPS), dedicated to research and education, Editor-in-Chief of the Interdisciplinary Journal of Partnership Studies, an online peer-reviewed journal at the University of Minnesota that was inspired by her work, keynotes conferences nationally and internationally, has addressed the United Nations General Assembly, the U.S. Department of State, and Congressional briefings, has spoken at corporations and universities worldwide on applications of the partnership model introduced in her work, and is Distinguished Professor at Meridian University, which offers PhDs and Master’s degrees based on Eisler’s Partnership-Domination social scale.

 

David Loye, Riane Eisler’s beloved husband and partner, died of Covid during the night of January 24, 2022. This was two days after they celebrated their 45th Anniversary. We invite you to join Riane Eisler in honoring and remembering David.

Transcript:

Dr. Eisler  00:07

No ordinary Soviets had to stand in line for toothbrushes. I mean for so we were served caviar. And we were in a very fancy hotel in the four years of our suite was a grand piano. And it was like what is following the same domination economic is the connection between what happens in childhood between gender between family and what happens in the state or tribe. So that he, a couple of years ago, radically reduce the penalties for family violence.

Clay  00:53

Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay Boykin calm for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male. Hello

Dennis  01:17

World. It’s me Dennis and Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this particular podcast and I’m here with the founder clay Boykin. Hello clay.

Clay  01:28

Hi, Dennis. I’m thrilled today to have with us Dr. Riane Eisler. Dr. Islur is a cultural historian, attorney, a futurist, a social system scientist and author of I forgot how many books but some of the ones that you may recognize off the top is the chalice in the blade sacred pleasures, the real wealth of nations and the book that came out in 2019, nurturing our humanity, how domination and partnership shaped our brains lives in future. So Dr. Islur welcome.

Dr. Eisler  02:05

Thank you. And thank you Clay for starters, for the wonderful article that is actually on our website, Center for partnership.org. And for all the work that those of you are doing to really help men be human in the full sense of the word because it’s not only women who are challenging the old stereotypes, but men and that is such an important part of what I call the movement from nomination to partnership. So thank you.

Dennis  02:53

You’re You’re You’re so welcome. Because this is what whatever I know that that we’re going to be able to work our way through this. This has to be a partnership, it has to be a collaboration. It has to be synergistic. One plus one is greater than two, and we’ve lived for so long in this zero sum. economic reality and that’s not how economics works as far as I understand it. And you’re talking about the new economy, how we’re going to create this and work in your work in economics and your your thoughts systems about the partnerships. Could you talk a little about this and what’s on your mind and heart?

Dr. Eisler  03:34

Let me start have Seaford may start with, on a more personal note, please. Because I have a great deal of passion for this work. And that passion is actually rooted deeply in my own early life as a child refugee with my parents, Nazi Europe, from Vietnam, where I was born, and very early in my life. And this is really directly now related to your question. I began to ask questions that I think most of us have asked at some point in our lives, does it have to be this way? When we humans have such a tremendous capacity, both women and men or consciousness for caring for creativity? Why has there been so much insensitivity, so much cruelty so much destructive test and start to do my multidisciplinary cross cultural trends historical study? To answer that question until much later, but I as you mentioned, Clay, I’m an assistive person and I’m interested in what kind of society will support our end No, I’m assuming capacity, as I said, we’re carrying the consciousness for creativity, rather than because we obviously also have laws, then we’re insensitivity, cruelty destructive. And in the course of this work, I, of course, look at our past that are present, and most importantly, at the possibilities for our future, including our economic possibilities with this book that came out of this study was the chalice in the blade. And then came sacred pleasure. And then a number of other books. And then I realized that I could not answer the questions of my childhood, by looking through the conventional lenses of capitalist versus socialist, west, north versus south, religious versus secular, etc. And I kept seeing these two configurations, the domination system and the partnerships this. And I then applied the, these two systems configurations, to the study of economics, which goes right to your question was the book called The Real wealth of nations. And something that really struck me is that the mindset that we have inherited, is so strange. It’s really our heritage from earlier more rigid domination times. And it is to the values of most important human work, which is the work of caring, what people are curious, and caring for our natural life support systems. And if you look at those, the work of Smith and Marx, you see that for them, this work was to be done for free by a woman in a male controlled household. Yes. And, you know, when we were supposed to take care of children of the sick, keep a clean and healthy, warm environment, which of course then translates into keeping a clean and healthy planetary environment.

Dr. Eisler  07:41

There is nothing in either capitalist or socialist theory about caring for nature, nature, as far as closeness and marks were concerned, is simply there to be exploited. That’s it. And as I said, the work of caring for people starting in first, that’s women’s work, be done in a male controlled for free, the male controlled household, and they call it reproductive rather than productive. So if you fast forward to GNP, that is what it reflects. It’s an economic ground, that simply excludes the three life sustaining sectors, without which we would not be here, without which there would be no economy, the natural economy, the volunteer community, economy, and the household. So when you’re asked me this question, it’s impossible to add to answer it in terms of the old debate that so many people are still engaged in capitalism versus socialism or communism. Frankly, a colleague of mine calls these old categories weapons of mass destruction. Our consciousness,

Dennis  09:10

yes, and one of the things that I love about what you talked about duck price for was about how the, we measure GDP, and we do not take into account so much that the measurements are way off how and I love that if we were to take if we were to rearrange our rearrange what we measure that would account for taking care of our humanity and raising our children taking care of our planet, doing the volunteerism and have that, that that would very quickly give us an entirely different measure,

Dr. Eisler  09:51

completely studies a recent Australian study of the economic value now And then, you know, let’s talk in those terms of the work done for free, the household of caring for people, including children. But if that were included, it would constitute 50% 50% reported by Australian GDP. But as I said, GDP follows the same very limited approach of both Marx and Smith, even though both actually challenged some elements of what I call domination, economics, because it goes way back, it isn’t just neoliberalism, which is really a replay or trickle down economics, you know, it’s sort of a replay of this futile idea that goes on bottom, should content themselves with the scraps, right, dropping from the opulent tables of clothes on top, to Chinese emperors, into passions and to sheiks and to it really. Yes, I mean, it’s deeply rooted. And it is domination, economics, that we really are addressing this idea of top down, trickle down. Exactly, because

Dennis  11:27

we’re seeing that we’re seeing that so much aren’t we try?

Clay  11:31

Yes. Gosh, I was just watching the news before we got onto this podcast. And they were talking about the huge palace that has been built off the books for Putin, hundreds of some odd 1000 square feet, just incredible place and underground, hockey, you know, field and, and so forth. And it’s speaks to exactly what you’re talking about. Dr. Islur?

Dr. Eisler  12:04

Oh, absolutely. Then, of course, I mean, I remember when I was invited to by Nordic women for peace, to miss them on a march to unlearning God. And they had previously done a peace march on Washington, DC. And the class structure was so clear, you know, ordinary Soviets had to stand in line for toothbrushes, I mean, for soap. But we were served caviar. And we were in a very fancy hotel. In the four years of our suite was a grand piano. It was like what is following the same domination, economic. But it’s interesting. And that really takes me to the configuration of the partnership of domination system. We recognize something that is inherent to the analysis of the systems, or systems analysis of the partnership, domination, social scale, because it’s always a better a good way. Nice the connection between what happens in childhood, between gender between family, and what happens in the state or tribe, so that he, a couple of years ago, radically reduce the penalties for family violence. Oh, I always recognize it. If you look at the Taliban, which is religious, and Eastern, or if you look at ISIS, the same thing or for men is Iran. Or if you look at Hitler’s backseat Germany, work for that matter Salus, former Soviet Union, they were always into strengthening or maintaining the kind of family but it is one of the real foundations are a highly punitive, rigidly male dominated authoritarian. It’s simple once you start looking for it, but we have, especially those of us who aren’t good educated in higher education, right. We’ve been taught, I mean, how I remember one day, sort of waking up, is it from, from what I today call the domination trends, and realizing that in all my years of so called Higher Education, there has hardly been anything by about or for people like me, women, such as for children, where we’ve been somewhere buried in so Domestic course or some family relations course is beginning to change the little bit. But not that much we were taught that the majority of humanity and anything pertaining to it to women and children, is not really important enough to be included in what we are taught is important knowledge and tools.

Dennis  15:27

Were very, this, this is part of our mission. Because we believe we, we understand that we cannot, that this is not sustainable. We know that and so as we are in search for the new compassionate male, we are in search of that within ourselves, then both of us are in a journey of our own awakening through our own conscious and unconscious biases. Because from from our standpoint, from a we know that this is not working clay, you talked about that, that we men, the roles that we are assigned are very, all very often completely at odds with who we think we are, yet we we have to fit into some stereotype to be able to do it. You were talking so much about about trusting men clay, yes, as a Marine, Dr. Islur he was a Marine and went through all of the all of the the high, high concept male archetypes that that you would you would consider coming through this process.

Clay  16:37

You know, thanks, Dennis. There are many things that I learned. You know, one was that leadership is about servant leadership, even on the core. And there’s an undercurrent of compassion. And I didn’t have a name for it until out after I was out of the core, and began to look back and realize how even in situations like that, even in harm’s way that men taking care of men range taking care of Marines. John 1513, Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend. That’s all compassion. And what genocide are the past couple of years? We believe that there’s an undercurrent, it’s men, compassionate man out there. And I would like to believe that that that momentum is growing, is rising. And I don’t see it out there on the news or anything, but when I’m talking with men and white men circle and so forth. It’s there. And, you know, my hope is that it’s able to really surface.

Dr. Eisler  18:07

and this can only surface if enough of us including men, like you and Dennis, that help men to give up the sport domination. Yes, real masculinity of not being like a woman. Because as long as we have the stereotype, that being like a woman is to be compassionate to be caring to be really gone violent. When you have this this problem that men face, I think that we are at a time when this very rigidly binary stereotype stereotypical which is necessary for domination systems because yes, later, but if you don’t have these rigid stereotypes, how can you rank code masculinity? Over femininity? Yes, men over women. But this said, Men, Judo here we’re talking about with thinks nothing of sending his, you know, his his soldiers to be killed. I mean, for millenia. Men in Domination systems that had to give nothing less than their lives because some guy on top like Putin wanted more in real estate.

Clay  19:39

Yes. Young men fighting old men’s wars. Yeah. You know, the one thing that came up on a podcast just last year, we were talking about in terms of solar and lunar energy, and it was Howard Tyson. He said, you know, play Think about it this way, you know, we all have this energy, we all have the solar and the lunar, we all have the male and the female aspects to ourselves. Think about it like this. The lunar leads in the solar executes. And I thought to myself, no, wait a second. But then I thought back and back to the core. This is where leadership comes from. And so if we men are out there, thinking we can leave just from the head, cut off it and not acknowledge the essence of who we totally are, then we’re really making a big mistake. And so to me, it’s this integration of head and art, it’s not one or the other. It’s the integration that that is a must.

Dr. Eisler  20:52

Well, I think that this is a good starting point. Because you are of course, still talking about domination archetypes here. The veil is equated with reason, I think of how reasonable our leaders Thank you for saying that. I so appreciate you saying that, please. It’s no young does this use was a mess when it came to gender stereotypes. I mean, his UNIMIN analysts? Yes. I’m the mus is active is Bula, you know, protagonist, and what is the Anima? It’s either man’s inspiration or nemesis. Right? Completely relational. And the truth is that we’re all relational to each other. And then one of the problems that men in Domination systems have had is that their models for masculinity have been that you have to excel you have to accomplish, you have to, and really, you know, I hear people talking about the problem is ego ism. And I have to laugh because women weren’t supposed to have an ego.

Dennis  22:16

Oh, not the women. I know. I know, some pretty powerful women that goodness.

Dr. Eisler  22:23

Now you do. But you know, the old stereotype women were not protagonist.

Dennis  22:31

How did you how did you as a young teen, as powerful as you are doctor as I mean, I because I feel it your your, your intellect, and your heart and your drive and is so strong? How did you as a as a teenager, and how did you react to the world? How did that? How did that what was that experience like?

Dr. Eisler  23:00

This night? No transformation is possible because I have, I have experienced, okay, I was kind of a mess as a teen. I mean, I wanted desperately to belong, because I’ve, I’ve been an outsider all my life. And, you know, I was obviously cast out from as an outsider. Before I was born, I was an outsider growing up in the industrial slums of nirvana. I was an outsider here in the United States. When I came, I even pledged a sorority, which I then disaffiliated from, but I had no gender consciousness. I mean, I, I have to tell you, and that lasted into my 30s. Okay. I when I graduated UCLA law school, I was looking for a part time job with a entertainment law firm. That’s where my head was. It wasn’t, by the way. I mean, what it’s about is massaging people’s egos and counting, helping them count their money, or increase their money, but the head of the firm called me in one day to compliment me on some work I had done. And you know what he said to me, and he meant it as a compliment. But what’s much worse is I took it as a compliment. You don’t even great job to don’t think like a woman. And I took it as a compliment. But this is the kind of thinking of being socialized, you bet. And so it wasn’t really until I sort of woke up. List domination trends My 30s that went along with 1000s of other women.

Dennis  25:07

Yes, yeah. And What years were these?

Dr. Eisler  25:10

What years were about the 60s, the 60. So this was during Exactly. So this, this was when we first began in the Women’s Liberation Movement here in the United States when it wouldn’t when it was, I mean, it had begun. And of course, it was earlier than that. But when we began to get some momentum and going toward that, and getting the era started to started to be passed,

Dr. Eisler  25:34

well, and I wrote the only last paper where on the proposed Equal Rights Amendment, it’s called the equal rights handbook was published by A, but it’s still available online. And unfortunately, it’s still relevant. But I really want to return now to the the intimate partnership aspects of my life, please, my second word for the love of my life. My husband, David Loy. We’re together for 45 years, and who recently died, and I will be left without him. But he was a caring man that he worked with me on the equal rights handled this way to Africa, to the Robie conference UN Conference on Women in writing a deep dive. And caring is not a human characteristic for goodness sake. And the fact that it’s been so, so suppressed in our culture, especially in men, but also in some women, we all know that no caring men and we know women who are not caring. And we know that people who are stuck in these gender stereotypes. And by the way, the study that I cite, in nurturing our humanity is very interesting. People who voted for Trump, the US election, one thing they had in common was not economic hardship. I mean, that was okay. But two things were the very interesting around which fit was the configuration, which I really have to tell you about at this summit. was one thing was a horror of women who stepped outside the domination stereotype of femininity. In other words, people like Hillary Clinton, people, you know, women who were assertive. Yes. But the other thing, which is fascinating, and it’s so much with the configuration of the combination of partnership systems, is that in times in terms of what they were trying to teach their children and help their children realize, wasn’t curiosity wasn’t empathy. It was really more obedience, conformity. And of course, it makes sense, doesn’t it? And women have become many women. I mean, look at 70 million people voted for Mr. Trump. Yes, many of them were female. They have internalized this, which takes me to the configuration which I do want to share at some point, because

Dennis  28:53

I want to I know that it broke my heart, Doctor eyes or when because I, I had I believed that Hillary Clinton was going to be that every every woman would secretly who was who was outwardly Republican would secretly go into the, into the ballot box and, and it was the it was the 20th anniversary of my what my wife and I that night, November the eighth, and we and we had our celebration all set, and my heart was broken. I mean, I couldn’t believe that women would not stand up. And then I said, I must, I must not have this right. There must be there. There’s something I’m missing.

Dr. Eisler  29:40

Well, I think that it just shows that what we’re talking about is not an issue of women against men or men against women. It really is an issue of changing the underlying worldview. And was it our economic system Family Systems, you know, I’ve mentioned already, I mean, the trend towards for example, authoritative, non violent rather than authoritarian and violent parent thing is very important partnership trends. The trend towards non binary, flexible, fluid gender roles. That’s the trend. We have to recognize this. And it’s very hard for people because if you look at the modern social movements, they’ve altered actually, the progressive social movements have all challenged the same thing, a tradition of domination, you know, whether it is a movement against the so called divinely ordained, right of kings to or of men, divinely ordained, right? Again, men to rule over women and children are of a quote superior divinely ordained that your your superior is to rule over inferior was all the way to the environmental movement. Challenging are ones hallowed conquest, and domination of nature. But they focus on trying to dismantle the top of the combination of politics and economics is conventional. And pretty much a secondary to women’s movements with children’s rights, movement, spirituality, movement, etc. All of which are there, you know, the foundations, and they were domination systems that kept rebuilding themselves, like in Russia, that authoritarian, punitive, rigidly male dominated family is still the ideal No. Really change

Dennis  31:59

where you are going to talk doctor about the configuration in the reconfiguration? Could you bring that to us?

Dr. Eisler  32:05

I’d like to do that. Because as Einstein said, we cannot solve problems with the same consciousness that created Thank you. And language is a very, very important that linguistic psychologists have long told us that the categories provided by a language. And this is particularly true of social categories. They channel our thinking. So it’s almost impossible to see a culture. So if you look at the conventional categories, for one thing, is kind of silly, that people don’t seem to notice when they start arguing about religious versus secular, Eastern versus Western or capitalist versus socialist, that there have been repressive violence regressive cultures in all these categories, and continue to be and they also don’t notice that these categories either marginalize or ignore or say they should be subservient, nothing less than the majority of humanity, women and children. Yes, now, we cannot have whole systems change, without taking into account these foundational relations, which Neuroscience tells us that what children observe or experience in their early years, shapes, nothing less than the architecture of art. So I’m proposing that we need to change our language about societies and start talking about shifting our cultures not from capitalism to socialism or from socialism to capitalism or not left to right or from right to left or whatever. But of shifting from domination to partnership, and there are four core components of these systems of figuration. One is a top down also rich area, structure in both the family and the state or tribe, the economics, etc. Okay. The second part of the figuration is something that is marginalized or ignored gender relations, and this is where you both come in, because we domination oriented societies invariably rank one form of humanity. male form over the female. Yes, and that is a template for you. equating difference beginning with this fundamental difference in form in our species with either superiority or inferiority, dominating or being dominated, being served or serving. So it’s a template for indoor versus outdoor thinking and you move to the partnership side, and you can see it in much of our prehistory. I wrote extensively about that in many of my blocks, because the evidence is overwhelming that for most of our human cultural evolution for 1000s of years, we oriented more to the partnership side and that the domination system shift occurred in the mainstream of culture will be about 5000 years ago,

Dennis  35:58

yes, with the with the creation of private property with a concept.

Dr. Eisler  36:04

Not necessarily there are many, many theories about certainly technology, including agriculture. So, they turn towards the domination side, at a certain point, but the early agrarian societies, like shfm, Jolla, for example, in Turkey, in the plains of Turkey, which is the largest Neolithic site ever excavated, was more egalitarian, by the size of the houses by the types of grave was more gender balance. Ian Hodder with the archaeologists, who excavated most recently there has an article in Scientific American about really being born male or female, did not affect your status in life. And of course, there are no signs of distractions through warfare, or over a spy was yours.

Clay  37:16

Help me Dr. Eisler. What What was the timeframe that he was excavating? What what timeframe in the history was

Dr. Eisler  37:26

about? From about? I think about 6000. Before the Common Era, okay. Onward. But these were very early farming settlements. This was a huge town in the back exactly.

Dennis  37:44

The way it was. It was a it was an amazing economy, wasn’t it? I mean, it was very.

Dr. Eisler  37:51

It was an amazing economy. I mean, we’ve been told so many false stories, stories that work, this notion that there are only two possibilities for us, we either dominate or were dominated. Think of the categories that are gender specific. matriarchy, patriarchy. I mean, yeah. Either women rule or men rule. The fathers or mothers. There is no partnership alternative.

Dennis  38:21

Is there any word for it? Well,

Dr. Eisler  38:24

I coined the word guy, let me say it again. Di Lundy, Dinah, for a woman under a strong man and L in English for linking. wonder, why don’t you go back to me reading the chalice and the blade let me continue with the configuration because the amount of abuse and violence is very, very different in the Domination and the partnership system and to actually see the art changing radically. I mean, art is a symbolic language, you know? And if you It’s fascinating but if you really leave behind you know the conventional thinking of the linear evolution No. Evolution like everything else wasn’t even there. But anyway, domination systems require a high degree of abuse and violence all the way the wife and child breeding grounds, lynchings warfare, to maintain themselves because how else you maintain these rankings with men over man man or woman, race, civil race, religion, religion, etc. Partnership side yeah, there is some violence people lose it sometimes. But it isn’t built into this. And that makes a huge difference and of course, the forest part store Are we are we I mean, we’ve inherited the story that well, whether it’s selfish genes or original sin, the same story is that, yes, they fight each other. But with simply the same story, we’re bad, we have to be controlled.

Clay  40:26

So I’m just testing my understanding, you’re talking about the four being the family in childhood relations,

Dr. Eisler  40:34

then I’m talking about structure, structure. And I’m making the, the connection immediately between the structure in the family and the structure in this later drive. And I can give you a contemporary example, the countries that today ranked highest in the happiness reports, as well as very high in the world. Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness reports, etc, are nations that have moved more to the partnership side are the European nations like Norway, Finland, Sweden. And they have, I mean, let’s look at the partnership structure here for a moment, because it’s not only in the family, but also in the Slater tribe. That is where democratic, they’re not socialists, they have more caring policies, because of the second component, because the status of women has risen, so that half approximately, of their national legislature is female. And as the Status of Women rises, men will no longer feel that this is an integral connection between changing male masculine stereotypes, and the devaluation, the hidden system of gendered values that we’ve been living with, and are trying to leave behind. Because as the Status of Women rises, men no longer feel it’s such a threat to their identities, to their status to their masculinity, to also embrace caring policies. So these nations at universal health care, very good quality, childcare, accessible, well paid, government supported. They have very generous paid parental leave for both mothers and fathers. And that’s precisely why we have such a successful business sector. You know, I, it makes me wonder, where, where’s the what flips the switch? What would cause them to begin to make this change? There’s many theories about it. One is the agriculture theory. And private property, which I certainly in some places, maybe it happened that way. But in Europe, in the area surrounding the Mediterranean, there is mounting evidence, including DNA studies showing that it was through armed invasion from the fringe areas of our globe, where as a matter of fact, the shift from gathering hunting was not to agriculture with to birdie. And herding, as we know from problem with cattle today is not a sustainable way of really, technologically speaking, it’s a lousy technology, because it depletes without giving back. But in these societies, for a number of reasons, and I deal with that in some detail, in my book sake with pleasure, which is kind of a heresies with it, there’s a message behind that. Well, you have it, of course I have it. Like you remember, I mean, like the bonobos, which are one, you know, one, one chapter in there. Yes. Our closest primate relatives, in difference is the common Chimp, but they’re much more partnership oriented and they share leisure. Yes, food, they share sex. I mean, it’s a completely different social organization. And we have that capacity As shown by these millennia. So we have to change our stories

Dennis  45:09

are when you look at your grandchildren, Dr. Eisler for do you have? Does this bring you hope? Do you see a difference in their consciousness? And and what is going on with them? What what is your sense about what’s going on in the, in the race mind consciousness of humanity as you look out through the eyes of your grandchildren?

Dr. Eisler  45:33

Well, I think my grandchildren are very aware of them, that we need new thinking. I mean, they’re looking for it. But it’s really interesting because, you know, I used to be even I still occasionally still do, or give a lot of keynotes to major conferences. Yes. And people buy into this, when they hear me, pulled back by the culture. So it’s our job. And really, we owe it to our children and generations to come to start using the terms, partnership system domination. Because if we don’t, people will say, Well, what do you mean by that? Or what do you mean by a caring economics of partners? People will ask, but it’s up to the, to those of us who are agents of cultural change like you to, to start using different tools, and to start helping people to see connections that are made invisible by the domination chance.

Dennis  46:52

I’m so glad to hear you say that because one of my quests in this life is to ask people and to really understand what is enough? Have you set that number by will ask a person have you set a number that you would know at least when you hit it when some economic or or or other marker would be hit you ago? Okay. Yeah, I’ve got it I’ve got because I don’t hear it being asked, and I don’t. And that’s just the mindset.

Dr. Eisler  47:24

Well, you know, in nurturing our humanity, there are studies showing that in societies where there is a lot of accumulation of the top, which by the way, domination economics creates artificial scarcity. I siphoning resources to top five cleaning services into Parliament’s weapons wars, and also by failing to invest in caring for people starting at service. I mean, children, especially for our post industrial knowledge, service economy, our most important assets for goodness sakes,

Dennis  48:06

I love that doctor because when, when we talk, when I talk to friends of mine who describe themselves as conservative, I go, What a great word to conserve you, you don’t drive your car and never take it into the into the mechanic and put oil and take care of it. We take care. What is this wonderful word conservative? Why don’t what our what are we going to conserve and nurture and support?

Dr. Eisler  48:35

Well, but for the, quote, conservative mind, and there are studies in virtually our humanity showing that actually are very structure of our brains. People who consider themselves very conservative, have very rigid brains based on denial. And it’s related to the development of part of the brain that is not as well developed, as in people who are less quote, conservative, conservative and liberal, are pointless words for me. Just make us fight each other. Dr. Islur. While you’re talking about the brain, you made the point in a recent podcast that the pleasure centers light up in our brain when we care and share more than more than when we dominate. So so when I go win the football game, and I’m spiking, the football app feels great. But test not as great as feeling that I would my pleasure centers would light up when I’m caring and sharing is that that is EPS salutely True. And you know, many studies have shown that people are happier when they give. That’s what makes us feel good. But, but this empathy, this hearing has to be either suppressed or compartmentalized. So it only applies to the in group. In Domination systems, whether that in group, right, it’s the in group of code mankind, female, other or divided states, whether it’s whites versus blacks in the Middle East, whether it’s Shia versus Sunni, or Sunni versus Shia, it doesn’t really matter. And other rising, right. Yeah. Other right. And that’s really with that very basic model. Yeah. It’s not coincidental what I spoke about earlier, the correlation between wanting to either maintain or impose this is the punitive widget vo dominated authoritarian family, and what kind of regime?

Clay  51:16

Dennis, remember when we talked with Dr. Doty the other week, and one of the key points that was made was that compassion, empathy and compassion is, is innate, it’s part of our DNA, and it’s got to be nurtured. It has to be nurtured. And that’s, of course, the whole point of I mean, if there is a central point, and there are many points in nurturing our humanity, it is that it isn’t a question of genes. This is a question of gene expression. And that happens to action with our environment, especially in the first years, we can change. I mean, people can do did

Dennis  52:02

a good doctor, I mean, you look at your evolution.

Dr. Eisler  52:06

I had a whole evolution. And David was really part of that evolution. And part of my journey. I can I can honestly say that, on a personal level partnership is just so wonderful is so pleasure.

Dennis  52:27

Doctor, thank you for sharing David with us and bring him along in this. It’s very, he’s very palpable to me just in how you how you have shared how he is part of you today. And as as strong as as he is sitting right, sitting right within you.

Dr. Eisler  52:49

Well, they did some very important work. Because he wrote me tons of poetry, which I think is very good. I published a book called 100 days of love, this 100 days that we were together for a day. Oh, that’s another story. But he wrote he thought it was a pioneer in retelling the story of Darwin’s evolution, because at Davis word, Darwin has been used by the domination system is this 800 pound gorilla, to say, hey, what matters is, you know, the survival of the fittest was the fittest defined as the meanest right? And in his book on human evolution, Descent of Man, Darwin explicitly said, at the level of human evolution, random selection, and all these other mechanisms may fade in importance. What is important now is culture and love. He wrote so many times about love, and he actually apologized that for using the term survival of the fittest, which wasn’t history, it was a term. But anyway, so I highly recommend David’s book, Darwin’s last theory,

Dennis  54:20

Doctor, thank you so much for giving us this opportunity just to spend some time with you. And to know the I guess, before I want to go if you if you could just tell me some of the VISTAs some of the things that curiosities that you’re going to be exploring in the near future,

Dr. Eisler  54:39

and I will continue to do my teaching. And by the way, on a center for partnership.org you can find a way to really take a self paced course called Changing our story, changing our lives and up Do it for groups and then you get to own the for videos and to use them yourself in your presentations as well as all of the resources on my list that I am now working on giving background to David’s extensive poetry in a book that I calling tentatively called for what was the title of one of his times, which is yet love remains.

Dennis  55:31

God is how precious thank you for giving us this time today for spending your time here on this planet with us what we do, clay has Shepard this over 100 podcasts and when he said that we were going to have you it was like this was the ice this was the cherry on the ice cream sundae of our of our time to be able to be able to spend time with you and the grace that you brought to us and that you brought to the planet Dr. Eyes for thank you so much for your time.

Dr. Eisler  56:04

Thank you goes with a very very good for being you.

Dennis  56:13

Thank you world and thank you everyone and we will see you next time on in search of the new compassionate mayor.

56:21

Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate mail on your favorite podcast Station.

EP102: Rollin McCraty – HeartMath Institute

EP102: Rollin McCraty – HeartMath Institute

Scientist, psychophysiologist, executive vice president and director of research at HeartMath Institute, member of the Global Coherence Steering committee and project coordinator of GCI’s Global Coherence Monitoring System.

Rollin McCraty, Ph.D., director of research at the HeartMath Institute, is a professor at Florida Atlantic University. McCraty is a psychophysiologist whose interests include the physiology of emotion. One of his primary areas of focus is the mechanisms by which emotions influence cognitive processes, behavior, health and the global interconnectivity between people and Earth’s energetic systems. He has been with HeartMath Institute since its founding in 1991 by Doc Childre. He has worked closely with Childre to develop HMI’s research goals and has been instrumental in researching and developing the HeartMath System of tools and technology.

 

 

McCraty and the members of his research team have worked in joint partnership with research groups at Stanford University, Claremont Graduate University, Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Prince Sultan Cardiac Center in Saudi Arabia and the University of Lithuania among many others.

He has been interviewed for many feature articles in publications that include Prevention, Natural Health, Men’s Fitness and American Health magazines, and has appeared in television segments for CNN Headline News, ABC World News Tonight, ABC’s Good Morning America, NBC’s Today Show, PBS’s Body & Soul and the Discovery Channel. He has been featured in many documentary films, including I Am, The Truth, The Joy of Sox, The Power of the Heart, Solar Revolution, and The Living Matrix among others.

McCraty’s critical research on heart rate variability and heart-rhythm coherence has gained international attention in the scientific community and is helping to change long-held perceptions about the heart’s role in health, behavior, performance and quality of life.

He is one of the primary creators of the Global Coherence Initiative and the principal designer of the Global Coherence Monitoring System and its international network of magnetic field sensor sites. Related to this, McCraty heads up HMI and GCI researchers investigating the relationship between human and geomagnetic field environments and the interconnectedness of and communication among all living systems. They also investigate how these fields act as central synchronizing signals within the body, carry emotional information and serve as key mediators of energetic interactions between people and living systems.

McCraty is a member of the American Autonomic Society, Pavlovian Society, National Association for Psychological Science, Association for Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback and Society for Scientific Exploration.

His studies, research and extensive professional articles have appeared in numerous journals, including the American Journal of Cardiology, Journal of the American College of Cardiology, Stress Medicine and Biological Psychology. He contributes periodically to the Global Advances in Health and Medicine journal.

 

Transcript:

Rollin McCraty 0:05
Well, as it turns out, whenever you’re the heartbeat, you have the current flows in the body. They also radiate magnetic fields, I mean, produce magnetic fields, which easily radiate right through the skin and out into the environment around us. Now, how do I know that? Well, let’s take a different device called a magnetometer.

Rollin McCraty 0:24
Which measures magnetic fields out here in space in front of the body and measure the hearts magnetic field. Yeah, and I think relevant to what you guys are talking about on your interviews and shows a lot is to also through those same years is when a lot of our natural kindness and compassion and stuff kind of gets beat out of us. So I just kind of use that as a backdrop or an analogy for what I mean, to where, you know, we start evolving to where it makes more sense, even for our own. Many, many studies bear out what I’m about to say here, that it’s really collaborate collaborating with others and being kind and compassionate is the best for our own careers, and certainly for our relationships. That was just enough for you even invited me this. I was just reading something that what women want most in men is kindness.

Clay Boykin 1:16
Hello, my name is Clay Boykin, and I am in search of the new compassionate male. I believe in the midst of these incredible times of change. A new compassionate male is emerging. As the new archetype in this podcast is intended to give voice to both men and women on the overarching topic of compassion consciousness in men.

Dennis Tardan 1:41
Hello, world it’s me Dennis and Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host and I’m here with the founder and my partner, Clay Boykin Hello, Clay. Hey, Dennis, how you doing? Great. Good. Today we have and I’m thrilled to say Dr. Roland McCrady. Dr. McCrady is the director of research for the Heart Math Institute, an organization that I knew many, many years ago lost track of, and I’m anxious to hear what he’s got to share with us today. He’s also a professor at Florida Atlantic University. And he is a psycho physiologist. And he studies and he studies the physiology of emotion.

Rollin McCraty 2:26
Oh, welcome, Roland, thank you for joining us today. Oh, it’s great to be here. It was right there. Great to rediscover clay. I think we probably met. I don’t know. 1820 years ago, maybe something? So I think so. I was with Motorola at the time. In Austin. I think y’all were doing some work with Motorola. Maybe in Florida, and work for a few places actually a few places during that era. Yeah. And I had the occasion to fly out and, and spend a little time and, and then come back. And I always remember that. Yeah. You know, I’m an ex Motorola, my person myself. That’s right. And were you in Phoenix? No, I was a communications engineer. So I was a field engineer. I was I went out and fix the stuff, you know, for police fire departments when the locals couldn’t, you know, I was that guy that. Got it? Well, I’m a little semiconductor guy. So I put the stuff in the stuff that you fixed. Yeah.

Dennis Tardan 3:24
Yeah. How wonderful. And I’m a consumer. So Motorola has happened to be in as I pick this right out. This is a Motorola phone. So I’m a consumer I this is this is the great great grandchild of all the work that you guys have done. Well, unfortunately, wow. Maybe not, unfortunately. But Motorola is now owned by a Chinese company, I think, ah, well see, as so much of what we’re doing, what a time to be alive. Roland, I, you know, when we’re when we talk about, there’s so much so much, really learning and relearning and rediscovering. And so what I want to start is I want to start about what psycho physiology? Could you please? How do you say that at a cocktail party? What do you how do you how do you describe your field?

Rollin McCraty 4:16
Well, it’s really understanding the I guess I could say it this way, the interface between how we feel how we think and feel, and what goes on in the activity in our bodies. You know, that’s the psycho part. Right? Right feelings, behaviors and physiology. You could say the underlying activity in our brain and nervous system and hormonal system. But, you know, our research is really saying that you can’t quite look at it that way, because it’s just as much as what’s going on in our thoughts, feelings, intuitions, yes, that are really driving the activity in our body and our nervous system and our hormonal system. So it’s kind of a different way of thinking of it, but that’s really What I would say the data really, really suggests it’s really what’s going on I, I don’t know how wide your audience is here, but I tend to call these are energetic systems. Yeah, you know, the vibrations, because they’re actually they are, you just can’t put an emotion or a thought or an intuition under a microscope.

Dennis 5:17
Right. But when when we, you know, when we talk about string theory, and we talk about the work that everything is a vibration that if matter and energy can, can be interchanged, then the vibrations there are what creates whatever we, you know, look upon it collapses. So, how could they not be interchanged? Well, right.

Rollin McCraty 5:38
Yep. Lot. Yeah, in the modern world, but there’s still a lot of people that kind of the blinders on?

Dennis 5:43
Well, yeah, there were a lot of people that had the blinders on with Copernicus or with I mean, this is these are all the things that we’re learning. One of the things that clay and I talk about is that, that radio waves existed before an instrument happen to detect

Rollin McCraty 6:01
blood. Absolutely. Right. I mean, and so much of what we know, from my perspective, what we discover and and there’s certainly great advances going on in material science and technology and all that no question. But you know, our fundamental, really understandings of how the universe and life especially life works, there hasn’t been any significant advance in over 100 years.

Dennis 6:24
That’s exciting. So what impelled you, what impelled you to go in the direction of this from being a motorway engineer, here, you are a motorized roller engineer, you’re, you’re out there, you’re out there working. But there was an impelling to get you in this direction?

Rollin McCraty 6:47
Well, that’s a long story. But I think even before most of my engineering, you know, times, I was military and in the university, Nebraska, and then Motorola. And there was always something in me. Even back to high school, I was a kid who was building Heathkit, radios and transmitters. And you know, in Junior High in high school through that era, and I kind of grew up. My grandfather was a small town mechanic, right? So I from a very early age grew up in that kind of world. And so I was always asking questions, like, well, what is a magnetic field anyway? And nobody could ever answer that. I mean, they give you formulas, and which I’ve forgotten most of now, to be honest. But yeah, but describing the behavior of them. And we’re really good at that. And we can make radio waves carry information, and like we didn’t Motorola still do. But the point I was gonna, well, there’s two questions that I think you’re addressing there. One is what we discover and a lot of things is really mimicking what we biology already does. If that makes sense. It’s we’re talking about radio waves. Well, as it turns out, in some of our work shows that we are broadcasting, radio waves and those waves, not radio waves, but electromagnetic waves, and that those waves carry information, just like we would use on a cell phone. So a lot of what we discover is really, why nature is already figured out and doing much more efficiently than than the technology we invent to try and mimic what’s already going on. So that would

Clay Boykin 8:25
say that there’s a field around us.

Rollin McCraty 8:28
Well, there is.

Clay Boykin 8:29
I want to explain that to me. I mean, I can’t touch it.

Rollin McCraty 8:33
Yeah, well, I’ll do that. But to finish your other question. So I was I had a good time at Motorola don’t get me wrong, but there was always a deeper something right? And I wasn’t quite, I guess wired to care enough to play the the male I guess you could say game especially for this and the corporator thing. So I actually left that world. When I first I went to Miami still working for Motorola. In another context, I supposed to oversee the installation of a country wide communication system in Colombia. And that fell through actually found out many years later why that fell through after I’d already been hired to do shop. But that’s another story. And after that, I, you know, my interests read, I found a book that was talking that was actually about the field called radionics, which is a kind of a more different perspective on biological fields and wet Ray waves and stuff. And that got me intrigued. And that’s kind of what got me into the study of consciousness. And so I moved I packed up my stuff and moved to California to get a degree in consciousness studies, one of the first degrees and the first universities that gave degrees in at a small accredited university actually ended up being here in Boulder Creek, California. And then that got me into you know, meditation, that kind of things and I won’t go through the whole story. But then let’s just say while I get through that, that that crowd of people was part of the group that introduced spirulina to the world. You may have heard of that. But it’s a Super Bowl.

Dennis 10:12
Yes, it’s a superfood, isn’t it? Yeah, you

Rollin McCraty 10:14
can actually live on it. And that got proven many times. And so this, this kind of opened my heart a little bit, I think you could say to what yours were these sort of in the 1970s? Late 70s. Okay, good. All right. And the early 80s was the spirulina thing. And, and as life unfolded, actually, National Enquirer did a cover story on spirulina. And anyway, we went from a company selling about 100 150,000 a month and this stuff through the health food stores and consumers. And thanks to I think I personally wrote about $20 million dollars in business in the next two weeks. So it was a, you know, just way, huge jump. That’s its own story. I don’t want I don’t want to go into all that how we pull that off. But the point of the reason I wanted to share this, the history was we took the profits of that. And because we really were a motive to feed the world’s hungry populations, why we were doing this because I could care less about it otherwise, frankly. So we took the profits of that and went to Southern California, out in the middle of the desert, and proved you could actually grow spirulina and in the middle of a desert and feed the world’s hungry populations, you can set these up locally and problem solved, right? Way ahead of our time. I mean, we had these giant solar powered spray dryers and things to process it, it was all there, it all worked. And that went absolutely nowhere. In terms of solving hunger problems. In hindsight, you know, I talked about that when my idealism bubble got popped, you know, here we are, you know, I mean that because I even through, you know, my other studies and practices, you know, they probably need to see here, I was grounded enough in my electrical engineering side of things that I never got too far into the wacky stuff. Right? If that makes sense. Yeah, I was, I was always pretty grounded through it. But anyway, what I, through that era, you know, we talked about consciousness, you know, it’s really all about consciousness and done and on and on. And so after that experience, that became a felt knowingness, if I could say it that way more than a concept. And so basically, after that experience, and realizing how it was blocked, it was really consciousness problems. It was people, you know, leaders of countries and things. I basically said, well, heck with this humanitarian stuff, I’m gonna go make money again. My dad, so I started a company in electrostatics, and kind of went into that field and, and we grew to a multimillion dollar company, and just a very short time, two or three years. And that was a fun ride to I had a great time through that. And, but there was still that deeper, yearning, you know, of kind of think what I incarnated with more, probably more likely, you know, looking back, even into my childhood, that I really wanted to do something, you know, better, better the world, not just my own life. And so another sports car in a driveway wasn’t kind of doing it. And so, then I met duck children. Well, I kind of vowed to myself that I’m not going to get really involved in this humanitarian type things or, you know, doing good for the world. Unless it’s something that can really shift consciousness, you know, it people in a mass scale, because otherwise, I might as well go have a good life and make lots of money. And

Dennis 13:48
exactly, I mean, when you talk about shifting consciousness, let’s take this smartphone, no, no. Technology has ever been adopted as quickly. As as the smartphone has from from not being there to how quickly people are. So that was a shift in consciousness. Right? So a shift in consciousness from from a mechanical standpoint.

Rollin McCraty 14:14
No, that’s not how I mean it. I’m talking about something quite different. Let me let me give you another example. Please. I used to say not that many years ago that I’d read this you know, in some papers and things that with 10% of the world’s military budget that every every human being on planet Earth, could be fed, have clean water educated and have housing at least basic all their basic needs met exactly 10% of what we spend on more and bombs and that kind of nonsense, right? The bucket could never find the reference until about three years ago when I met cilia Silla elsewhere, they he was actually been nominated for three but three Nobel Peace Prizes. And in fact, I’ve got her book laid out here this business plan for peace. She’s going to be a speaker at one of our upcoming events here. Wonderful. And but what that was really neat, because she did the actual the hardcore math and work on it. And I was when I was saying 10%, I was wrong. It’s far less than 10%. Wow, is this not a problem in consciousness? So it’s not technology. We don’t need another iPhone, or smartphone, or we have everything right now and have had for years that would solve these problems. That is clearly a problem in human consciousness. So it makes sense. Does that help give you what I’m talking about?

Dennis 15:41
Absolutely. It absolutely does. Because Because if this is wonderful, all right, continue, continue. Okay.

Rollin McCraty 15:50
So anyway, it’s, you know, our own growth and how we are able to self regulate, and really be more inclusive and compassionate and kind. And

Dennis 16:00
that’s why we’re in search of right fi.

Clay Boykin 16:03
It absolutely is, you know, we’ve been, for the past two years, we’ve been talking to men and women all over the world. And, you know, that’s why we call it in search of the new compassionate male. I may be an idealist. But I think that and I believe that underneath all of the negative things that we’re seeing out in the world, that there’s an undercurrent of compassion, and that there’s a shift that’s coming in, we’re in the midst of where combat compassion, consciousness is going to going to rise up. And that’s why I was particularly interested in talking with you to compare notes on which what you think about that?

Rollin McCraty 16:47
Well, we have an annual event that we do on one of our projects called the Global coherence initiative. And the title of it is the rise of collective compassion. That’s in March, three days, three, half days, march 18 19th. And 20th, I believe, but

Dennis 17:02
both virtually and on site.

Rollin McCraty 17:04
Yeah, we’re having to do we used to do these as big gatherings. We used to go to Vida buddy to Cancun, and they were great events that we had down there just be about our eight years, but the last year, and this year, we’re having to virtually because of the obviously the current pandemic era here right now.

Clay Boykin 17:21
Wow. So HeartMath Institute, orchestrates and puts that on globally. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.

Rollin McCraty 17:28
So which is part of our mentioned global coherence initiative, which is one of our projects. I don’t know how wide you guys want to get here. But I

Clay Boykin 17:38
think I want to I think I want to go there. Yeah. Somewhere along the line, I want to look

Rollin McCraty 17:42
at let me let me tie this back in now to your question. You asked me a few minutes ago. Clay. You know, when you asked me about we radiate fields. Absolutely. So it’s, sometimes people push back on this. And it’s just the absolute Craziest thing. One of the books on my bookshelf back here is a book on by electromagnetism. And there’s a drawing in it from 1863, where people had actually externally measured the fields of the body and had it right. So it’s not like this is something I invented, right? I mean, every hospital has equipment to measure what’s called mcg? Well, let me let me back up. We put electrodes across the body to measure your heartbeat electrocardiogram or on your head to measure brainwaves or the EEG, what those devices are literally measuring its current flow. Right there differential amplifiers, I probably you know what I mean, by that?

Clay Boykin 18:39
Well, I was in marketing, so maybe not

Rollin McCraty 18:44
an electronics background, but

Dennis 18:47
just just just nod when Yes, yes, of course. Of course. I know. differential amplifiers all the time, of course.

Rollin McCraty 18:55
Basically, you’re measuring the flow of electricity, right. That’s really what it that’s why it’s called the electrocardiogram or electroencephalograph for measuring brainwaves. So when I were there, this is physics 101. I mean, whenever you have a flow of electrical current, you create a magnetic field. Right? So and the heartbeat is by far the largest source of rhythmic electrical, magnetic magnetic energy in the body. So we measure the heartbeat and millivolts and you measure brainwaves in micro volts in order magnitude. Wow, later, right. So I let’s use our cell phone analogy. If you held Joseph’s I’ll hold mine up here. We got one, two. So cell phones work indoors, right?

Clay 19:37
Yes.

Rollin McCraty 19:39
Well, those invisible waves are going through the wall. Well, it’s the magnetic component that’s going through the wall. Right, that’s what we’re using to carry your voice or the pitcher, you know, whatever. We’re modulating that signal. Someone I know a little bit about from my old days, right and my original career Well, as it turns out, whenever you’re the heartbeat You have the current flows in the body. Do they also radiate magnetic fields, I mean, produce magnetic fields which easily radiate right through the skin and out into the environment around us. Now, how do I know that? Well, let’s take a different device called a magnetometer which measured magnetic fields out here in space in front of the body and measure the hearts magnetic field. Now, every most large hospitals have devices called MC G’s, Magneto cardiogram, where you can, you don’t have, you don’t touch the body with anything physical, you’ve measured the field of the body. Now, I’m not going to go into why that’s better for certain why hospitals have them. But just, I don’t think it’d be that interesting right now. But point is, every time the heart beats, we radiate a magnetic field, and you can back up that magnetometer about three feet before you lose the capacity to detect the Hartsfield, you take the same sensor you back up about it, you can measure also brainwaves externally without touching, you back up about an inch before you lose. Right, the capacity to detect that signal. So clearly the hearts the big player here, it wasn’t this guy just goes back into the 90s. In our research here at the Heart Math Institute, using about the same techniques I would have used back in my Motorola days to decode or demodulate the information being carried by in this case, a radio wave to carry the signal, he has them the same thing, just applied those to the heart signal. And lo and behold, you can demodulate and see the information patterns carried by the field. And only that you can actually hook yourself up and get the right equipment and watch this, these frequency patterns change in real time as we change our emotional state.

Clay Boykin 21:42
Now, now, is that is that anything like biofeedback?

Rollin McCraty 21:47
Well, it’s we can take that we actually develop the first commercial consumer level biofeedback. So yes, yes and no. Right. So biofeedback is big is a kind of a term, right, measuring something and feeding back the result. So looking in a mirror and smiling as a form of biofeedback, you know, so what underlies that infer those information being patterns that we are literally broadcasting that we are radiating to the field into our we can call it your personal field environment has to do with the what’s called heart rate variability. And so what that is, is and you would remember this about we taught probably back when you were here many years ago, clay but in a healthy person, our heart rate changes with every heartbeat. So most people know what heart rate is right to simply how many times is the heartbeat in a minute. But in reality, our heart rate changing with each and every heartbeat. So the time drill always vary in time between each consecutive pair of heartbeats. And that actually is a way that that physiology encodes information is the space between things.

Clay 23:02
So there’s really no such thing as a steady heartbeat, not not

Rollin McCraty 23:05
in a healthy person. In fact, if you if your heart rate becomes metronomic, like that is one of the strongest indicators of serious future health problems. Wow. And that predicts things like cancer, heart, sudden cardiac death, metabolic, a whole list of things, this is not a good thing. And so physiologically speaking, it’s a you can think of it as a simple form of Morse code. Of course, physiology is a lot more complex than, you know Long’s and shorts, but it’s the same one same process. And that, so that heart rhythm, this is what underlies our heart rhythm, the patterns of that this is going back to our earlier work in the 90s, again, is the most reflective of a person’s emotional state. So our heart rhythm pattern becomes very chaotic looking when we’re feeling anxious or frustrated or impatient. Not compassionate, right? Whereas it what was really surprising in a way back again, going back to the early 90s, in our work was that the our bodies and our physiology literally shifts into a completely different functional or operational mode. When we’re feeling heartfelt feelings, I use that word that’s thinking doesn’t work. You can think appreciation, you know, thank you for opening the door for me. But when you feel it, it’s a very, that’s what drives physiology is the emotion of it the feeling. But when we feel things like appreciation, or compassion, which are all part of the love spectrum and my way of thinking that shifted the physiology in a completely different mode that we actually figured out what to call it took us a few years, we ended up calling coherence which has become a term all over the place now in terms of physiological functioning. And so when we’re, as it turns out, we actually have what is called A resonant frequency our bodies do. Right. And when we’re operating in it, that actually ends up being the same pattern that we were seeing when people are feeling things like compassion and appreciation and so on. We switch modes into a highly opera into a highly efficient functional state. So then that also mirrors the frequency literal frequencies, we’re broadcasting and radiating out into the environment. There’s a mathematical relationship between the rhythms of the heart and the information in the field. I hope that made sense.

Clay Boykin 25:32
Okay. I think I’m with you. A coherence. First thing I think of is, oh, my heart rate slowed down and it’s you know, and I’m calm and collected. But that’s, it’s more than that.

Rollin McCraty 25:47
And you’re talking about relaxation, relaxation, okay? Alright, so let’s talk about the word coherence, you know, you look it up in the dictionary, the first definition usually has to do with like, now we’re having a conversation. And I’m hopefully I’m putting my words together in a string and in a way that conveys a meaning past all the individual words, in other words as a coherent argument, or a coherent statement, and if I had a little bit too much to drink to this morning, and I muttering nonsense, that you would say, I am not coherent, I’m incoherent, right and go here, exactly. But that’s, that’s kind of the common people level of it. But it’s really similar in fit science and physics and coherence as a concept use pretty universally in science and physics now. And, in general, we use the word coherence when we’re talking about complex systems, like us, like EA, or even a cell is a compact system living system. So within the physics and science context, coherence has a lot of related meanings that are kind of umbrella, it means that the parts of a system have to be in communication. So it implies connectedness and correlation among the parts, right, because they have to somehow talk to each other to be working together in a harmonious way to give rise to a function that’s beyond the sum of the parts. And it also implies energy efficiency in a coherent. So we use coherence if we’re talking about the cosmos, you know, that’s a common term right? Or, certainly, if we’re talking about our physiology, so to have it to be in a coherent physiological state or heart rate, heart rhythm, coherence, as we now call it, that means a lot is going on in our bodies, that we’ve actually shifted into a more efficient functional state. So we’re also now vibrating if you will oscillate in or at our natural resonant frequency. So in other words, the heart long brain blood, blood pressure rhythms are all synchronizing synchronous, doing less work to get more done.

Dennis 28:00
Got in some bats where and

Rollin McCraty 28:02
the heart and brain come into synchrony as well, the activity of the

Dennis 28:05
heart and rink and that’s where your instruments and the work that you’re doing at the Heart Math Institute, are designed to do?

Rollin McCraty 28:13
What? Yes, so that was early, all the stuff I’m talking about now goes back into the 90s, in our work, so that once we really understood the physiology in this new functional state, I mean, that was what we have. It’s always been there. Sure. I mean, we’re always can we heard incoherent and people been in the states all along? That we were just to kind of the first look at it more deeply and say, wow, look what happens, you know, and by the way, I’m kind of rambling here, but at that time, when you search the medical literature, I think I could find three papers that had to do with what we would think of as positive emotions. Why 1000s on things like stress, anxiety, depression, right? Three

Dennis 28:51
on what a waste

Rollin McCraty 28:54
on positive now that’s changed. You know, there’s a whole new movement called positive psychology and all this going on out there.

Dennis 29:00
If we study if we study why people keep keep saying, that is so valuable. Yeah.

Rollin McCraty 29:08
Alright, so anyway, the point is not very few researchers that actually looked at what’s going on when we feel good. It was all focused on the negative side, right. Anyway, once we identified the state, and it was so clear that we naturally go into this ops dysfunctional mode called coherence is optimal state. When we feel good, you know, you walk out you may not say this, but you walk out the door to yourself, in other words, in the morning, and it’s one of those days, you know, the blue skies and the perfect disco Hakata What a beautiful day. You’re feeling appreciation of how I mean, you may not think that and you’re naturally going into this more coherent state.

Clay 29:55
That kind of like being in the zone. Well, it would be what underlies

Rollin McCraty 29:59
Right. Is that makes it that makes sense clay?

Clay Boykin 30:05
It does it does. I just, every once in a while I hit a straight golf ball, it feels so good.

Rollin McCraty 30:13
Because you’re a golfer you retake up your cones, parents practices, because it’s huge a lot of golfers have find if they get coherent before they take the shot. You know, there’s there’s over 400 studies now and people when they learn how to get independent of us that have followed up on our research, that we feel better and we perform better whether it’s golf or Olympic athletes. You know, whatever tennis I mean, the list goes on a lot of professional athletes use it now as well.

Dennis 30:41
Rollin I want to go back to this, this idea that it takes less if that we could solve so much of the world’s problems with less than 10% of the debt, the defense budgets? What is between that, that solution and where we are now? And how can what you’re doing and the things that that we’re doing the science get us to that that very, very same place,

Rollin McCraty 31:12
and evolution of consciousness. And so from my perspective, consciousness is evolving,

Dennis 31:18
right? So we are if we are going through, are we because it feels to me that we’re that whatever the imperative was to go from the chimpanzee in the bonobo to the hominid to the something is happening now that there is an evolutionary imperative. Something is going on that we’re going into. And it is an evolution in consciousness. And that’s where it where it’s happening.

Rollin McCraty 31:44
Yeah, and if that word is kind of strange or unfamiliar, consciousness, colored awareness, you know, or maturity, right? Yes. Because they’re all kind of interchangeable in a way.

Dennis 31:58
So we’re in we’re in our, in our human species. We’re at like, like, like, I don’t know, where you would be? Are we in the teens? Are we’re in our teens as a species? Are we are we evolving, that we can evolve into?

Rollin McCraty 32:15
We’re probably not quite to our teens yet. You know, I’ve never used this analogy for a bit. Think about it when we are cute little kids. So I grew up in the Midwest at a time, you know, that’s very different than I think these days, you know, and there was a period I come from or how old I was that the backyard was our boundary. Right. And then we as we matured, and we developed a certain level of self regulation. Right, like, be home by dark. It’d be literally exactly right, then the block became the boundaries, you know, an off playing with the other kids in their places. And Matt and, and then there was the next boundary with the next level of maturity and capacity to self regulate was now, you know, you look before you cross the street, so you don’t get ran over and, you know, kind of basic stuff, but it really was maturing, you know, and awareness. Then, in my days, the town became the next boundary. Certainly, right. Probably same for you guys, your

Dennis 33:19
neighbors looking out for one another. If I did something, and that was reported back, it was well, yeah,

Rollin McCraty 33:25
that that too. But the point is, I’m making we are evolved, or our awareness was evolving. Absolutely. Right. And for a lot of people we get we graduate high school, or we great college that kind of stops. Right? If you get my where I’m going with that?

Clay Boykin 33:41
Yeah, it’s like going back to high school reunion 40 years later, and pick up right where you left off.

Rollin McCraty 33:48
Yeah, and I think relevant to what you guys are talking about on your interviews and shows a lot. It’s also obviously those same years is when a lot of our natural kindness, and compassion and stuff kind of gets beat out of us. Yes. If you will, you know, and especially later in that development process. So I just kind of use that as a backdrop or an analogy for what I mean, to where, you know, we start evolving to where it makes more sense, even for our own. Many, many studies bear out what I’m about to say here, that it’s really collaborate collaborating with others and being kind. And compassionate is the best for our own careers. And certainly for our relationships. I’m just in for you even invited me this. I was just reading something. What Women Want most in men is kindness.

Dennis 34:42
It’s It’s amazing. It’s extraordinary what we can do and what I love about that, and what play and I have certainly experienced at all, is that it’s there. It’s an it’s our nature, but it gets I love the way you were saying it was beaten out of us or it was layered over or whatever and it’s De construction that gets it back to our natural state, which is, which is love.

Rollin McCraty 35:06
Yeah, so we have to unlearn a lot of what we lost I I’ve had to, you know

Dennis 35:12
me to that so much of that has been, has been part of that. So where are you now rollin at? Tell me what what your your work is in helping to elevate the consciousness or to or to bring into the coherence?

Rollin McCraty 35:30
Well the reason I got involved 30 Some years ago after infection sold my electrostatics company for way less than it was worth kind of quickly exit and do what I do now was met the founder of HeartMath, Doc Childress, his name. And so I’ve got to tell you the real story here of how it all began, I was he was on the East Coast and North Carolina area, and I was back there doing some work from our company on their research triangle area. And, and I was introduced to some mutual friends through the earlier years, I was talking about the consciousness studies and all that. And this guy sounds, this character sounds interesting, I’ll go pop over spend an hour meet the guy. And three days later, I left true story actually. And through that, he was talking about his history. And we had a lot of similar backgrounds, both, you know, from being in our early years poor, mean race and poor families and farming communities. And that mine was in Missouri, Nebraska, that area, and all the kind of school of hard knocks that we’ve kind of gone through, if you will. And what he had, he had studied very deeply, a lot, a lot of things that was similar to me, it just got a lot deeper than I had. And it was talking about the heart, not just as a metaphor, you know, and through my meditation practices, we know we were meditating with energy to the heart chakra and all this stuff. Yeah. You know, as I was very adept at that to through those practices, but it was never really taking the heart seriously, as in the way I would tend to describe it. Now. We to diverge a little bit here to really answer your question, we have the physical heart, but we also have what we now call the energetic heart. And I’m saying that’s real. And we’ll structure it’s just at the vibrational level, that thing we can’t yet put under the microscope. And that that’s the bridge of the transceiver to use my communications language, to what I hear I just call it the large or larger self that’s vibrating at a higher dimension and literally in a higher dimension. Sure, different dimension of density is the way I really think of it. But But anyway, a lot of people would call it their higher self or their spirit or their soul. Sure. Just saying, I’m here to say that’s real. And the heart is the bridge to that. And I’ll go as far as saying in my own personal experience and our research, that that’s an eye of a needle that you just can’t bypass. Right. And it is that it is really getting the the mind to finally surrender to that other level of intelligence that elevates awareness and consciousness that gets us to rise above our judgments and our biases and our kind of 3d level of consciousness. It’s a long story made really short there but

Dennis 38:34
but compelling to me, because it makes me want to know more. That’s what I because when you talk when you talk about the that the heart having intelligence, and it having it at that there is an intelligence there and that we tap into it. We’ve made then that is real.

Rollin McCraty 38:54
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, and that is what elevates consciousness is tapping into that flow of information.

Dennis 39:02
So we could could we say that compassion, the when we’re searching for compassion, we’re searching for it both in ourselves and searching for it out because there is value in that search?

Rollin McCraty 39:13
Yeah, so what opens? So I think of this. This new mechanism, or this network, I was just talking about very much like radio systems. I can’t help it. I’m an ex radio guy, right? Yep. But it really is like that, that it’s a signaling system between different dimensions, if you will, I mean, that magnetic fields are all around you right now in the room, you’re in Right. Clay and Dennison, hear all the cell phone conversations? So when we get our phone out, how do we get the information we want, we tune the receiver to be resonant with the frequency of interest. And as soon as we do that, we transfer the energy information and amplify it up and we’re having our phone call. I’m just saying we work the same way between our larger self right And so that level of our own undivided wholeness is another way of saying it is in communication with the through via the energetic heart right down to the DNA level to all the cells. And I mean, how are we talking to anyway, when we go deeper and talk to ourselves inside? Yeah. It’d be good. I’m not talking about mental chatter. Now I’m talking about those deeper core understandings of who we are and what we’re here to be and who we really are. And

Dennis 40:31
I love having these conversations, Roland and clay because the, the, I know that this conversation might not have made a lot of sense to me before, but because of the depth of the learning in the studies that I’m doing, I’m gonna be able to see and I’m trying to think about this conversation in 50 years that would be very prosaic that they would that the people would be really talking about this the normal part of conversation, rather than something rather than something esoteric.

Rollin McCraty 41:05
Yeah. That reminds me I hadn’t thought about this in years that your comment. Before I tell you this story, though, I don’t want to lose the point that it is those heartfelt feelings of appreciation, compassion, kindness, care, love, that opens that channel that I’m talking about. So there, you can’t get through that I have the needle with the just the mind, you know, the judgments and the biases and sorting that the mind wants to do. But the story you just reminded me of, I’m actually an official mad scientist. True story, it’s I’ve got to somewhere. I’ve got it back here a few quite a few years ago, now. Maybe 567 years ago, Wired Magazine selected I think three maybe four what they considered mad scientists. They actually did have the whole senators pics page, they did cartoons. This is the clinic right here. But here’s the point that made your comment reminded me I have to be qualified to be a mad scientist. Because we had to be doing work that was kind of considered far out and kind of wacky. But a generation or two from now it’d be considered common sense. That’s what reminded me of that.

Dennis 42:22
Yeah. And that’s where I see this. And that’s where I see this going. I see that because the opportunity because when we look at something that is mad, and mad is spending less than 10% of the budget of the military that we have of destruction that could end up solving the all of the problems of poverty, that madness. It is, isn’t it? That’s a problem. You’re going to say we’re moving to sanity as opposed to being something outrageous that is that anyone looking at that would go That’s insane. Play you.

Clay 43:01
Yeah, so Okay, so we’ve been talking about the individual pretty much. And okay, so I’ve got a field around me. There’s something bigger going on, that you’re involved with. I want to hear about that.

Rollin McCraty 43:15
Okay. Alright. So I wanted to give that background that absolutely feels because, alright, so I can kind of go into this. So let me just tell you the evolution of our cliff notes version of our research, okay, so we can make your fields out here, we can take the information and see that it’s carrying information, probably about a whole lot more of emotions, but for sure about our emotional state. So what we’re feeling inside doesn’t stop at the scan. It’s we’re broadcasting it. And I think everybody knows that we can feel that from others.

Dennis 43:45
We’ve seen that you’ve walked someone walks into a room and fire the entire roster changes we know that we seen everyone’s experienced Yeah,

Rollin McCraty 43:55
we’ve intuitively we know that and I’ve seen it. So the next I’ll just give you the quick notes to the next step. In our research, you’ll say okay, well, that’s neat. So what does that have measurable effects on other people? And that was an easy question to answer actually, there’s multiple studies people want the hardcore research on all this published. In other words, our physiology is exquisitely tuned to receiving and responding to the the amplitude and frequencies of other biologically generated or fields. As we’re tuned each other or so are not only we radiating, we’re also receiving and miserably affected by others. Okay. You kind of already alluded to that Dennis, so that was probably yes. Alright, so now we’ll take it bigger. So that’s the living room level, right. Then, so then we got into I’m going to skip our intuition research. That’s a whole other topic maybe we can talk about another time. But that answer clays question. We that’s what this is where we get into That’s called the Global coherence Initiative, or GCI. And so we start to, we now have a global network of really ultra sensitive magnetometers that are specifically designed to measure the resonant frequencies of the vibrations in the Earth’s magnetic field. So we have these sites, I wish we didn’t have to do this ourselves. It’s really expensive and a real pain in the rear to do. But we’ve got sites one here in California, northern Canada, Saudi Arabia, Lithuania, New Zealand. I’m probably forgetting some but so this is this global network that we’re able to literally measure the the rhythms of the Earth is what the magnetic field. So let me give a little context here, when we have a proper there’s just too far away from it to reach right now. But think of the earth right, and it got the geomagnetic field, you know, thing, our compass is tuned into sure one pole, the South Pole, we all learned about that back in probably Junior High in our era. And, you know, if you remember back to when we were in grade school, or whatever it was, you got to dump iron filings. Hope you guys got to do that right on a glass plate. Yeah, you put your magnet under it, you move it around, and it was fun to play with it. And it visualizes the shape of the magnetic field. But here’s what I want to go one more level. If you think back, those iron filings lined up in lines. Right, it wasn’t just kind of black blob. They’re all so those are also visualizing not already seeing the shape of the field, depending on whether it’s a bar or a ball or whatever. Those are letting us see what are called magnetic field lines. Okay, or flux lines if we’re using engineering terms. But anyway, the Earth, the Earth’s magnetic field is Big Donut, or toroidal shape around the planet. But it goes out into space many, many 1000s of miles is the same way. Magnetic field lines. Now, here’s what we didn’t learn at least I didn’t back then is that you can pluck magnetic field lines, and they vibrate just like a guitar string. Really? Yeah. And it’s a great analogy. I mean, any stringed instrument abolishes guitar, you change the length of the string, the tension, it changes its vibration, right? It’s frequency, same way with Earth. So they’ve got really long magnetic field lines. So they have a lower frequency. Now what’s plucking these magnetic field lines, and the fact the science term for this is called field line resonances. Okay, so what’s plucking the strings is the solar wind rushing by, which is about a million miles per hour. And meanwhile, Earth is turning and so is the sun, right? In fact, Earth is within the magnetic field of the sun. Right? So there’s all these levels of fields, we live within fields within fields. Right, so the bank, the magnetic field, lights are vibrating. And so when we measured the frequency of these vibrating field lines down here on earth through our global network of magnetometers, the in frequency language, one of the primary resonant frequencies is a frequency called 0.1. Hertz, can answer cycle every 10 seconds. And guess what? The frequency of the human coherent heart rhythm is 0.1 0.1. I’m going to pause a minute, let that soak in. Okay, so part two, think back to Science class when we were back in middle school, or whatever it was. And we got to play with tuning forks, right? Or if you didn’t develop, everybody seen the examples, you’d have two tuning forks, the same tune to the same note, you tap one the other starts to magically vibrate. It’s demonstrating what’s called resonant coupling.

Clay Boykin 48:57
Oh, okay. I had that with my guitars.

Rollin McCraty 49:00
Absolutely. You can do a clocks on a wall guitars you via you can hit one the same note the other starts to vibrate right now. Absolutely resonant coupling. All that is showing is you can transfer energy and information. When systems vibrate at the same frequency. Same back to our cell phones, all those frequencies we tune if you guys are old enough to remember back when you have to turn knobs on radios. Oh, yeah, right, you’re you’re you’re literally moving the plates within a capacitor to change the resonant frequency that wants it, you hit the right frequency boom, you’re listening to your radio station or having your phone call. So that’s just the simple basics of with where our physiology is vibrating, oscillating at the same frequency as the primary frequency of the birth. It’s not a big jump to understand how we can be transferring energy and information from us to the to the to the bigger field. My making sense here you fall Yes, yes. Oh, Are we when we’re radiating our frequencies, love compassion versus, you know, impatience, anger, frustration that we’re feeding are not only feeding our local field that is coupling to the larger field. So all of humanity is now contributing to the larger global field, the information being carried by the larger field.

Clay Boykin 50:22
And so if this large population is vibrating the same, then we’re sending some stuff out. Yeah, well,

Rollin McCraty 50:30
we’re receiving it. And we’re radiating. So that next evolution that we’re talking about in consciousness, kind of one of the scenes here that for GCI, that’s kind of a naturally emerges, please become aware of what what are you feeding the field?

Dennis 50:45
Absolutely. Right. So I absolutely, so one

Rollin McCraty 50:49
of my calls to action, usually, for I get done with most presentations or talks, is, hey, pause real today and just ask yourself that what am I feeding the field is that part two of that is what we feed to feel matters.

Dennis 51:02
I love that. Because if that means that everything matters, that means that I can sit I can I can make a difference. By changing, I love the word mindful, because it gives me an opportunity to look at it rather than in a binary state, I get to look at it and in along the spectrum, that I can become more mindful, moving toward the one and moving in that direction to become more coherent.

Rollin McCraty 51:36
Yeah, I mean, mindful is a great term, and I back in what would have been 80s. For me, I studied mindfulness and practice that during that era. And you know, and it’s really great, because we’re being mindful, or mindfulness is really becoming more self aware of what we’re thinking and feeling and hopefully more objective about it. And as an observer, but I would also like to suggest, if I may, that, as we evolve a little more, that mindful term will probably fade away, and it’ll become more about being more heartful.

Dennis 52:08
I love that. Because that, really, that that. That brings us around to compassion. And it brings us around to be using this as a power and really to being a being able to to leverage it. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 52:27
well, exactly. So we have a lot more. I mean, you know, there’s so much 30 years of research, it’s hard to shove, cram 30 years of that into an hour here. But

Dennis 52:35
goodness know,

Rollin McCraty 52:38
kind of what it’s really important, I think, to understand that radio knob we were talking about, we have one inside of us. And we have a lot more capacity and power to tune our own dial than we think to align with our larger self and, and really become more energetic responded, energetically responsible for what we’re feeling thinking and what we’re radiating into the field. And there’s a lot of if you don’t want to do it, because you have to care for other people will do it for yourself.

Dennis 53:05
Exactly. But you know, you know, the thing that I find interesting, Roland is that you’re everything that I have studied from any of the any of the Masters in spirituality, any of the scientist says that they are talking about the same thing that you are you you’re you’re bringing this, you are applying the science and applying the science to what all the great teachers that I have, that I have ever studied, will either implying or directly saying,

Rollin McCraty 53:37
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting you say that it’s true. Absolutely. It’s also true in the scientific community. And I’ve had the honor, I’d say to meet a lot of pretty well known scientists over over my career, and we’ve had a lot of them have a visited here and kind of reminds me of a conference we had here on the question that was being discussed was it as our quantum processes involved in brain function and brain activity? So we had, you know, Roger Penrose was here, and Carl pre-boom and about 30, you know, similar names, right. And so they were here for about a week, and we had a lot of time to hang out at night, and you know, around the campfire in some cases and stuff and just talk and get to know each other. And it was so highly, David Bowman already passed away, but his main role was your contributor of his. And for example, in heaven having these kinds of discussions kind of like we’re having now he talked about a larger self that really guides and directs the physiology and all of these guys were, well, of course, it’s that way.

Rollin McCraty 54:51
It’s really true. I mean, you know, the really great minds and thinkers have absolutely no problem of discussion we’re having today. It’s kind of obvious to them You know that it’s really the, oh, I want to be kind here, but the scientists want to be is maybe, you know, you’re kind of climbing the ladder, and you’re really stuck in the dogma and religions. And to me, science has become the new religion and just as dogmatic as religion. Of course. Fortunately, I work in a nonprofit research center here, so I don’t, I don’t have to worry about tenure and don’t really, you know, have to play that game to the same same way. You know, the people who resist this kind of things, you know, they’re still stuck at that lower level, they haven’t really matured enough to their awareness to really understand that, you know, the I, to me, even from childhood, frankly, the idea that a lightning bolt hit a pond of mud, you know, millions of years ago, and we evolved into who we are now, against all the laws of thermodynamics, thermodynamics is just absolutely absurd. Yeah, I could never just never could, you know, and I know, all the models have, or not all but a lot of the models about, you know, self organization and all that. But even that falls apart with a little deeper thinking,

Clay 56:04
you know, I, this whole time, which keeps coming through my head is, you know, I work with men, I’ve got a mentor, if I got a network around the world, you know, how do we take this to action? You know, the guy that’s, you know, you don’t know about all this stuff, but he’s searching, you know, he’s got this hole and inside of them, and he’s trying to figure out, what do I do? How do I get unstuck?

Rollin McCraty 56:28
Well, that’s, that’s, I think you were one of the early adopters in a way. But that’s really why Heart Math exists. The Heart Math Institute is to provide practical research based not that that matters. But it’s a nice add on approaches, tools, techniques that we really can use to to really grow in our capacity to self regulate to have more control over our emotional diet and become more self aware and able to make Icom turnarounds. You know, I wouldn’t what I mean by that clay as a turnaround is somebody does something, you know, that frustrates us. You know, are we there goes that typical, almost automated, unconscious reaction, right? Frustration, impatience, anger, whatever that is. And the analogy I like to use, it’s like the trains leaving the station. You know, the trains pretty good at you know, it’s building up momentum. And I’ve actually had, I’m sure you’d have to the experience of that train gets too far down the track that emotional train I’m talking about. You’re sitting there watching going, Oh, shit. Oh, boy. There it goes. I see it happening. And I know the playout. And it happened. It is still it’s too far down the track. We can’t stop it and turn it around. That reminds

Clay Boykin 57:50
me. I should have pulled it up. It’s sitting away across over there on my bookshelf, is a little book called freeze frame

Rollin McCraty 57:58
is our first book your first book. Yeah, yeah. So but the whole point then when I say turnarounds is it takes a little bit of practice. But once that once that emotion starts building, and this is not about suppressing, that never works. But it’s about turning that energy around. And shifting that same energy, you know, into a neutral or with practice. It can even be appreciation, compassion, care, kindness, but and then that does nothing but benefit us, our immune system, our hormonal system, gets us into that coherent state, we’re able to think better, clearer, make better decisions. So just take some practice that, you know, most people just haven’t been taught.

Clay 58:40
Yeah. Well, hopefully some folks will listen to the podcast. And it’s getting out there. I’ve got, it’s being picked up in several places in Africa now. Wow. Congratulations. Yeah, I’m very, very happy with it. And I know your time is tight. And I want to invite you back, I’d love

Rollin McCraty 59:01
to this, I was fine. This is very different than those types of conversations.

Clay Boykin 59:05
Well, you know, I’m really trying to communicate, communicate, and, you know, probably about as many women watch, this has been. And same with my websites. You know, the stats show that sometimes there are more women on the website than there are men. You know, they’re looking for a resource for their man. And the HeartMath message is a very powerful one. And I’m really grateful that you took some time this afternoon. My pleasure, my pleasure. And please come back.

Rollin McCraty 59:38
Oh, just let me know when you don’t like to and we’ll find a time.

Clay Boykin 59:41
Great. Thank you so much, Roland.

Dennis 59:43
I love that you’re giving me the opportunity to exit the conversation at a higher level than I entered it at a higher level of consciousness. Roland, thank you, thank you for for this for this opportunity to to open my mind and to really to get into To My Heart and really to to explore that to be heartful. And because I can I can I can experience that now I can explore it and work into that place. Thank you. Thank you so much time. Clay thank you for for allowing me to be along this journey in search of the new compassionate male in myself and in you and in you rollin and to be able to see the beautiful examples that we have because we’re going on from here on so thank you everybody. Thank you for listening to podcasts and there will be more coming. So stay tuned. We will see you in search of the new compassionate male next time.

Clay Boykin 1:00:46
Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate mail on your favorite podcast Station.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

EP110: Don Frick – Silence & Servant Leadership (Part 2)

EP110: Don Frick – Silence & Servant Leadership (Part 2)

EP110: Don Frick – Silence & Servant Leadership (Part 2)

On the day when he first read Greenleaf’s essay The Servant as Leader in 1986, Don Frick decided to dedicate the rest of his career to understanding and teaching Greenleaf’s ideas about servant leadership. Since then, he has written books and essays about servant leadership—including Greenleaf’s biography—made presentations, conducted workshops, taught graduate seminars, and consulted with corporations on the principles of servant leadership. He is currently working on another book that offers details about how various organizations have implemented servant leadership. Before encountering Greenleaf’s work, Don engaged in multiple careers, including: managing departments at a university and museum of art; university teaching; television, radio, and film writing, production, and performance; trainer; specialist in advertising and marketing for Fortune 500 companies, plus an entrepreneur. His formal education includes a B.S. in Education, Master of Divinity, and PhD in Leadership and Organizational Studies.

 

 

EP109: Don Frick – Zelensky & Servant Leadership (Part 1)

EP109: Don Frick – Zelensky & Servant Leadership (Part 1)

EP109: Don Frick – Zelensky & Servant Leadership (Part 1)

On the day when he first read Greenleaf’s essay The Servant as Leader in 1986, Don Frick decided to dedicate the rest of his career to understanding and teaching Greenleaf’s ideas about servant leadership. Since then, he has written books and essays about servant leadership—including Greenleaf’s biography—made presentations, conducted workshops, taught graduate seminars, and consulted with corporations on the principles of servant leadership. He is currently working on another book that offers details about how various organizations have implemented servant leadership. Before encountering Greenleaf’s work, Don engaged in multiple careers, including: managing departments at a university and museum of art; university teaching; television, radio, and film writing, production, and performance; trainer; specialist in advertising and marketing for Fortune 500 companies, plus an entrepreneur. His formal education includes a B.S. in Education, Master of Divinity, and PhD in Leadership and Organizational Studies.

 

 

Transcript

Clay  00:07

Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay Boykin calm for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male. Don. Ty you doing?

Don  00:33

Well, it’s been interesting. I had a first meeting of my implementing servant leadership class. And that was last Friday. And it’s this time I just in the first the first meeting, I’ve learned to do this. So we just want to hear how you got here. To serve in leadership, tell me this, tell us about your journey in a person was kind of like a resume. And then I read some poems. And after that, the floodgates were open. And I this struck me I never struck me before when someone is especially a lot of people, when that field takes over with a group of people, you know, you’re all participating in the same field of intention and sharing. I’m not gonna say it’s mystical. I think it’s real. I think it’s, there’s a real measurable field probably we just don’t measure yet. But when that’s happening, then everybody is growing together. And it’s a feeling that can’t be manufactured. Facts are necessary. conceptual ideas are necessary. But they are not the only things that make up the full rich expression of what it means to be human, but also what it means to be a compassionate male. Also, there’s a man who named Dr. Tarr T AR, his mother, I met him recently. His mother was announcements. And she was one of the one of the one of the twins part of one of the twins that Dr. Mengele experimented on. Oh my. So she became an advocate. Later, she moved to Terre Haute, Indiana married and became an advocate for forgiveness. So I gave him the biography of Greenleaf because it has an awful lot to do with Terre Haute. And I really appreciate it. I’m going to see him tomorrow night. The State Museum now has an exhibit about her and her message. And they’ve done a documentary on her for public television. So I’m going to see that tomorrow night too. But she stood, she stood in the gates of Alice Fitch and read a letter about forgiveness. And until that moment, she could not get over the terrible effects of what had happened. And she was short with people and she realized that she was screwing herself an uprising

Clay  03:45

that really, it’s really sobering because last Friday, I interviewed Dr. Riane Eisler and her story is that when she was six years old, in Austria, her parents it was the crystal night and you know, these people were being raided and they were being taken away. And her father was taken away. And luckily, the mother was able to do something but get the to get the Gestapo to release the Father. And they evacuated and got to Cuba and survive there until they came over to the US. You know it’s something now, the right people show up at the right time. Especially in these these podcasts. I was talking about Dr. Rian, icecool earlier and per book, nurturing our humanity is a pretty incredible read. I skimmed it. I’ve gone back to take it to heart, read the preface in the first chapter that erased to the back to get to the conclusion. And then I’m going to read the rest of the book. And what is I think, showing me is that? Well, I don’t know what it’s showing me. I don’t know if I can put it into words yet. But I know that leadership for me servant leadership is, is in the present with the people that I’m with. With the network that I connect with. And this whole other side of leadership, the leadership that she’s demonstrated, taking from childhood, the atrocities that she witnessed and persevering through, and a brilliant woman taking all these different aspects and in this macro view of things, to present another way to, for us to live. And that’s another form of leadership. So it is to share, to take the difficulties and the challenges, terrific challenges, and then turn that in to something for the greater good. And she told us early on in the, in our conversation, actually, before we started taping, she she said that she had lost her husband six weeks ago. Yeah, that both of them well up into yours. And yeah, the obituary, said that he died of COVID. They’ve been married for 45 years. And she shared that. In their first 100 days of marriage, he wrote a poem a day to her. And she’s publishing that now. But you know, that’s a generation that’s, that’s fading away. Unfortunately, I think the lessons are also fading away.

Don  07:58

Look at us now. Yeah. I am so struck by Zelinsky in Ukraine. Here’s a guy who grew up Jewish in southern Ukraine. His father moved to Mongolia for four years. And they came back and live in Kiev. He surprised me. He was, of course a good student. He’s always interested in theater though. And he made it he got a law degree. In six years. He got a law degree and a bachelor’s degree and was licensed to practice law, but went back to theater and was highly successful there. He made his name in a feature film, which you can see in Russian on Netflix right now called servant of the people. Really? Yeah. And it was a take kind of a spoof of the current leadership of Ukraine, because he was anything but a servant of the people whose crooked he stole things. Nobody believed in. The film features Zelinski as a young man who’s still living at home. And he just for the heck of it, jumped into I pick his friends in the film put him in this presidential race. And one day in the morning, there is a knock on the door and he’d won the race and they come to take him down to his office. He was shocked. So anyway, the whole thing was so successful. I went into a series for several years when he then became genuinely interested in politics, He named his party servant of the people. So it took this spoof, and turn it into the world’s most serious name, I think. Wow. And by the way, he also had his own production company. And he was the lead producer, he produced everything on Ukrainian television, he was ultimately responsible for it. So he had also dealt with a lot of people with big budgets for over there. And he had prepared himself without knowing what he was preparing for a president, a wartime President at that. And I really strikes me because you don’t play the I mean, you’re kind of like me, you know, you’ve your Motorola for a long time. But you did a lot of other things to sense created new things. You weren’t preparing for this, when you were 17 years old. by name. You didn’t have a straight line drawn from them to hear. And yet you repair you prepared for it all along the way. Because I suspect, I’d like to hear you talk about this. I suspect you followed what lured you nuts, LVR, Id L U R, E, D, and kind of went with that. And it tended to resolve itself out in an unprepared unexpected ways.

Clay  11:48

Gosh, you’re so right. And I have to say that. And this is not unique to me. And all the the men that I’ve come in contact with and all people interviewed. It’s like, you know, it’s the hero’s journey. For the guys, you know, it’s the we grew up and we leave our heart behind, and we go do what we’re supposed to do. We go climb this ladder, and whatever form it takes. And we know how to be happy. And so many times, there’s just emptiness that guys have. They don’t know what it is, but they know that they’re supposed to climb the ladder. You know, that’s how you achieve happiness. That’s how you provide and so forth. But at some point, it all falls apart. And that’s my story. And my health got me and I fell. And it wasn’t until I came back and found out what was here what what what was this burn it is a keenness that felt empty. That I recognized that that was that was my heart speaking to me, even speaking to me all these years, and I can go back and look at pictures and photographs and things that I did, that were all about heart. But I was pushing that down and going after the career growth. And, you know, I guess that’s okay for a time to get oneself established, if needed. But but it brought me down eventually. And it was only in the 2018, I guess, maybe some leading up to that, that I really decided to follow my heart. I had had a couple of health scares. And finally the last one was this lit. Someone’s calling me to do something different. As soon as I did. The fall of 2018. Everything changed, everything was aligned. And everything took off. And it’s like, well, I don’t know where this is going. But it feels right. It was the first time in my life that I ever really listened to my feelings. This was not intellectual. This was a feelings thing. And the more I did it, the better I felt the more the energy changed around me and hearing

Don  14:43

thank you for that. It resonates with me. i i There are a lot of medical facts I could spew out and say oh, the males have a lot of cholesterol and we all ate grease In fact, I was blocking my heart. And I did quite well with concepts and ideas. But my heart was blocked. Yeah, till it literally was 90% 99% blocked. And they had to put stents in him. After that, I’d already run across certain leadership. But after that, I said, Look, I, I gotta quit what I’m doing here, and only do what I’m told to do. Right? By my heart. It’s got to be cleaned out. The Pathways to it, have to be cleaned out. It’s the Native Americans, you know, the talking stick, and yeah, all that. The fact is that if you don’t stand up and speak from the heart, I’ve been in some men’s groups where we do this kind of exercise. People will kindly nod. But they don’t, they don’t get excited. They don’t have to go pee, because they’re so excited. Because you’re just saying stuff. That means to be human, but also what it means to be a compassionate male. Now, I suspect that Solinsky has, you could probably check off all the boxes for compassionate bail for him. But doesn’t mean he’s not out there in his army fatigues. Doing want to ask to do to pray to protect his people. I’m compassionate. I’m not gonna fight back. No, no, that’s not. That’s not what it means.

Clay  16:58

So true. Ah,

Don  17:03

it’s a hard lesson for some people to learn is like servant leadership. A lot of people think it means being a martyr. And not attending to your own needs. Nothing could be further from the truth. If you don’t attend to your own needs, go in and go down. You’re going to be a poor leader

Clay  17:29

why so many things are running through my mind right now. Our experiences health wise are very close to one another. And yeah, heart being blocked. Call it metaphoric, or call it physical. Know, the blockage. Wow.

Don  17:54

And it’s what’s so ironic is that I blocked my heart to handle my feelings by not facing them directly. I suspect. I say suspect because I know at some level is true. And that very blockage almost gave me a Widowmaker what they call the widow-maker. And the hard docks talk about it about killed me. Yep. So by blocking it. I just about killed myself.

Clay  18:34

Yes. i So get that. And that happened in oh seven. I ended up under the knife, you know. quintuple bypass. And later on. I ended up having to stem because of that very thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there you go. And that’s what I asked myself. You know, I was, I was commuting to New York at the time back and forth in my offices on parking 32nd Street. And I’d sit my office and I look up at the Empire State Building, you know, never been up there. And when I went back after, like, Come bless for my bypass surgery. I thought I’ve never been up there. So I went up. This was a fall of December 22,020 17. No, this was the fall of 2007. I went up there. And I said, you know, metaphorically, I’ve made it to the top. I’m at the top of the Empire State Building. You know, it’s almost killed me. And of course, you know, what came next? Who am I? Why am I here? Where am I going? You know, I looked at my little office window down there. And I thought what’s is all about. And that’s when the market crashed. And I was let go and wasn’t for two years. For I got my next job. And it was, it was for $9 An hour part time at OfficeMax. You know, so I went from the top, basically the bottom and started over again. And that’s where it was that evolution that really woke me up.

Don  20:34

I’ve wondered, well, I had, oh, probably 10 or 12 careers. I don’t mean jobs, I mean careers. But in several of them, I was in the public, I posted a television show for the museum apart and did the radio series. But I had to start wondering what part hubris was playing. In that because there’s this thing out there, that persona that you can build, you know, just do it in media. I found a lot of wounded people in radio and television, who probably like me, had a hard time uniting their vocation in their application. And who they were and who they wanted to be seen as to another deadly thing, but there’s a kind of hubris there. And boy, just hate to have to admit stuff like that. I’m gonna go, I’ll drive around the block or something before I really get into that. It’s called the shadows. Yeah. And I think that’s where a lot of courage comes in for people. Yeah. Between able to turn and face them.

Clay  22:00

Yeah. What was it that that you really got rolling? With servant leadership. I mean, you. You’re the official biographer, for the late Robert Greenleaf. And you told in a previous podcast, kind of all the evolution of that. But there was a point when all those careers, which you really took off and dedicated yourself to the advancement of servant leadership. Can you talk about that? So?

Don  22:38

Yes, I got green leaves. Original essay, the servant as leader, when they in 1986. And it came in a padded envelopes from my mentor who lived in Dallas and McGee Cooper. So I opened it up, eventually, through blade around a couple of days, and read it and was riveted. And decided after I closed the last page, that I would devote the rest of my career to trying to understand and share these ideas. And that was it. Now, that was not my style, necessarily, to say, oh, okay, I see this, I’ll just change my life. It wasn’t unprecedented. One night in graduate school. I worked late at a radio station came back and there was one light on in the dorm. And the guy was an entry. I was in seminary, first year of seminary, and there was a guy there who I like, he was kind of a draft dodger, I think he was waiting till he turned 26. But he just said, you really need to go to England or Scotland. Next year, for your second year of seminary. I said, why? And he said, Well, I went to England, blah, blah, blah. So I walked out and called my sister and said, I’m going to Scotland next year. Boom, just like that. It sounds foolish. It sounds foolish to change my career, just like that. But I was saying, Yes, I didn’t initiate the request. The request came from somewhere else. And there was a solid rightness about it. You know what, thank God I did. Thank God that I take no responsibility for creating that. Except that I had the doors of perceptions open perception open long enough for it to sneak in and make itself No. And that’s for a lot.

Clay  24:56

I’m sorry. Yeah. Why Scotland?

Don  25:01

I’m one quarter Scottish. Aha. I always wanted to go there. And I wanted to learn a little bit more about my grandmother. And where she came from near Glasgow, but also Scotland. In theology. It’s a pretty big deal place. The University of Scotland had some high end theologians through the years. And I wanted to test myself there too. So I bought a motorcycle and ran around Europe after that, and you know, that all that kind of stuff? I’m glad I did. But how often? Have I been open to all? I’ve asked myself that since that was an awful, a W E, a full moment when this thing crashed into my consciousness. And I wonder if there had been time since that. insights of similar import. Haven’t tried to get in there. And I was too busy.

Clay  26:16

Oh, that’s a real. That’s really something to reflect on. How many times it just right below the surface? Yep. And there’s just enough resistance? No, I can’t do that. Just enough resistance to keep it is just an inch or two below the waterline? And yeah, really, it really is. It really gives me pause, as you’re saying that because that time when I said yes, when I quit my work, you know, I’d had another heart scare, I was okay. I came home. When I said to Laurie, I said, you know, I was in Jamaica in 2007 in the woods, knowing I was going to have a heart attack. And just finding peace. It’s hard to describe, but I knew I was leaning against the veil. I knew I was going to die. And I wasn’t going to go to the hospital air. But I felt got so at peace with all that. How that happened? I don’t know. And when I got back, sure enough. I went in. But I said to her after this latest heart scare in 2018, I said, you know, I was in the woods in Jamaica, doing what was in my heart to do do my little crafts and so forth. And knowing I was going to die. So I would do it was my heart there. And who’s to say, today is not my last day? And am I doing what’s on my heart right now. That’s right. If not now, when am I going to do it? And that’s what sparked me to believe and start this path.

Don  28:16

I think if something odd and irresistible comes to us because it’s on the fringes of not of consensual reality. I mean, it’s a kind of non consensual reality. I think that is a high alert that we should pay attention. And I’m almost glad here the I am glad I’m 75 years old. I don’t have the same passions of making it I making it now is to try to make a difference for other people as much as I can. knowing now that that’s not all out to me. That it is it’s it’s in communion with other people who care I’m supposed to be working with in certain ways, and I’m doing that. So it is mysterious, but it’s real. That’s it something can be mysterious. And still it will be real as dirt it’s holding those two things in our mind simultaneously. That Einstein called genius that we are but it’s very difficult to do especially in this culture.

Clay  29:45

Yeah. Yeah. So binary.  Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male on your favorite podcast Station.

 

EP107: Connie and Andrew (Part 2) Men, At the Heart of the Matter

EP107: Connie and Andrew (Part 2) Men, At the Heart of the Matter

Connie Baxter Marlow & Andrew Cameron Bailey are original thinkers, writers, photographers, filmmakers, futurists, climate “solutionaries” and inspirational public speakers. Their explorations into the essence of Reality have led to a unique articulation of the conscious, loving, abundant nature of the Universe. In their book The Trust Frequency: Ten Assumptions for a New Paradigm. Connie and Andrew present a system of cosmological axioms, informed by indigenous cosmology, quantum science and Eastern and Western mysticism, which resolve key paradoxes that have kept humanity from walking in balance with Universal Law and with an open heart. They offer straightforward, practical tools for accessing The Trust Frequency, an alternative reality where the soul’s destiny awaits, the laws are expanded, and there is more balance, beauty, joy and abundance than we can fathom.

They apply The Trust Frequency paradigm to the evolutionary aspect of relationships in their online course The Dance of Souls: The Relationship (R)Evolution

 

 

 

Their documentary film IN SEARCH OF THE FUTURE: What do the Wise Ones Knowis a companion piece to The Trust Frequency book and features visionary indigenous elders, Western scientists and futurists.

They have presented their work at IONS, SAND, COSM, ISSSEEM, Unity Village Chapel, New Dimensions Radio, Eagle Quetzal Condor Global Convergence, Consciousness of Immortality Conference, The Thoreau Society, Parliament of the World’s Religions, World Unity Week 2020/2021 and numerous other venues.

 

 

 

Transcript:

Clay  00:07

Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay Boykin calm for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male.

Dennis Tardan  00:31

Hello world it’s me Dennis and here we are again on the search out the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this particular podcast I’m here with the founder and host clay Boykin Hello clay.

Clay  00:45

Hi Dennis, we have Connie Baxter Marlow and Andrew Cameron Bailey for round two. Now, last episode 106. We talked about trust frequency to trust me. And today, one thing I learned was that Andrew has done quite a bit of work, men’s work in years past. And then there’s quite a bit of work that Connie has done related to men’s work specifically. And since we’re here, raising compassion consciousness for men. I’m really excited about our conversation. So I want to start off and let’s get to it, Andrew. Yeah, once upon a time you started doing men’s work, take it back as far as you want, I’d love to hear about it.

Clay  01:34

Let’s go back to Oh, the 1990. I actually just started doing my personal men’s work by joining the women’s movement in 1973. I think it was in Manhattan, really. And I didn’t know that I didn’t know there was going to be relevant. I was one of the few males admitted into sort of fairly inner circles in in the downtown Manhattan radical feminist movement, because my girlfriend was a leader in that field. So as the decades went on, so that really taught me a lot taught me a lot about dealing with a woman which is different from the subject of the compassionate male, but I think it’s relevant. Very well, when the men’s movement his John Lee is melodrama. So may His Robert Bly. Here are these extraordinary men coming out with these books and then leading these workshops. And I was busy raising five kids at the time throughout the 80s. And I was really in the midst in the year 1990. And there was a call I was living in the Hamptons, in quad or East quad in the Hamptons, which is close to Southampton. And there was a call for a meeting in Sag Harbor. Now I don’t know if you know these towns that talk Sag Harbor Absolutely. This little towns in the world, really an American particular. And there was a meeting and I sit down, I’m gonna I’m gonna go check this out. This is this is interesting, not men, the men are coming up the men are emerging. Let’s see what we can do here. So I attended this meeting. And are you aware of the Sterling group?

Clay  03:21

I’m not.

Clay  03:24

Thank God for that. Because this meeting was called by a group of men who call themselves the Sterling group. And there’s a person named Sterling. I never heard of these people either. watches this meeting, about 40 men showed up and I knew most of them. I was part of this community out there, right? I was in the construction business. I was in that consciousness realm. I was in creative arts, I had a band and stuff like that. So I knew I knew at least half if not two thirds of these men. And it was a hard sell. There was I called them five mustaches. There were a row of these five mustaches on this page. They all they look like they came out of a queen musically. And they sell sell, sell, sell, sell. So this is my this is my introduction to the men’s movement. So very weird way. And finally, it’s like, okay, who’s signing up for the weekend? $500 the weekend? And well, this

Dennis Tardan  04:28

is $500. When?

Dennis Tardan  04:29

$500 in 1994 is a is a is about $2,500 today.

Clay  04:44

So purchasing power is a guy raising five kids working really hard. didn’t have that kind of money, but also I’m very resistant to hard sell. So the question there’s a silence in the room and one guy puts up the sound. He said I’m going really good friend of mine. Actually the lead guitarist in my band, puts his hand up and said, I’m going, and then it’s like, never really tried to get. I’m realizing I’m at a sales pitch. So, okay, nobody answered. So I put my hand up and I said, you know, I’m sorry, but I won’t be going, a I don’t have the money fee. This is not quite the angle I’m interested in. But as there are 40, or 50 men in this room, I’d like you guys around here to know that if you’re interested in forming a men’s group, I’m up for that. And one of their mustaches said, I don’t like what you’re doing. Since Okay, I’m leaving. I’m out of here in a second I wanting to say. And I’ve said, you know, my number. Give me a call. If this is interesting to you, I’d like to form start something that doesn’t cost money is not part of a movement. It’s simply a group of men getting together to see where it takes us. And the guys yelling at me. And I said, okay, good night, thank you. And I left and I drove my 40 miles home, and got home, and my phone started ringing and didn’t stop ringing. So that’s how it started. So we had an X meeting with about six or seven men. So this is a this question of our man’s movement, a men’s meeting a men’s group? What the hell does that mean? What could it mean? It could mean a whole lot of different things. So we had a meeting with about six or seven men who called me and we within a week or 10 days, we sitting together in a room and going like, Okay, this is interesting. Let’s get some parameters here. Question number one, how many men and we tossed around we agreed upon 10. Let’s have a group of 10 should be handleable was 10. Too much smaller, it won’t be that relevant, too much bigger, kind of hard to handle. That 10 Min. Those 10 slots were filled within another three or four days of that meeting. For sorry, that my phone didn’t stop ringing. And I’m like, sorry, we’re full. What do you mean, you fall? Sorry. So guess what this poor guy ends up having to do? Start another one. So on every Monday night, we had a men’s meeting of the one group and the other group, because another 10 men immediately came into focus. And I was sort of the commonplace because it was my phone. It was so so and then the question is, okay, now what are we going to do with these meetings, and we came up with, okay, we’re going to have to hours, we’re going to have there for a very short amount of time each, someone’s going to have to be a timekeeper. Let’s get really disciplined and careful with us. And let’s have some real rules. No chitchat, Make it serious. No. Crosstalk talking stick while you’re on your own? And what are we gonna talk about? Whatever’s uppermost in your mind? Okay, so that I like that. It could be the fight, I just have as my wife, or it could be a painting that I’m struggling with, or it could be trouble at work. Or it could be, damn, I saw this girl on the street, you know, wow, whatever it turned out to be right. So we did that all of the 1990s.

Clay  08:21

When I let me ask you something. Why did they not go to that first group that was courting you to join for 500 bucks for the weekend? Why did they not do that? And why what attracted him to what you are offering?

Clay  08:37

You know, we never even discussed that. Really, the only man I know who joined that group is my son. That group meaning the first group, we’re just starting group, my son, decades later, my son at that time was probably seven years old. Eight years old. He later was trying to get me to join this exciting thing he had discovered and I said, Tell me about it. I said, it’s not called Sterling. And he said, Yes, it is. I’m like, okay, so it’s a big success. It’s a big deal. It’s millions of dollars. And it’s very pushy. And if we three men, were doing this together, we’d be getting really much with each other. We’d be pushing it shoving each other physically around, just show how masculine and male we are. That’s not what we did.

Clay  09:27

Let me ask you this. Because this is what I’ve run into. That there’s a whole number of men’s groups out there. And for, for guys to be in a men’s group. First of all, I think it’s great. They’re different levels of their consciousness. So different forms of men’s group work for different guys. So but what I have learned is that some of those men’s groups are trying to break into the guy to get him into his heart. But there’s a whole population of men out there who already in their heart and they need to learn how to connect with another man, I need a safe place to go. Go to. And I’m just curious was that? Does that kind of relate to your experience on what you were doing?

Clay  10:16

Um, yes. Without getting too specific. Okay.

Clay  10:19

Okay.

Clay  10:20

Let me ask you a clear, quick question. Do you ever go to the Mentone? Meeting?

Clay  10:25

The mankind project? No, the Mentone in Alabama? No.

Andrew  10:29

Okay. I don’t know if it’s still going. It was an annual meeting of the I only went once. It was Robert Bly. Okay. My team, tell me him. John Lee, it was spectacular about 130 men, and it was great. So somehow, the group of men who came together to that meeting was sort of compatible with what we were working on. I have to say, that was not the most satisfying man’s experience I’ve ever had. In fact, within a few years, I was just thinking like, oh, man, you know, I don’t want to listen to these guys talking about how many times they screwed their wife last night, or how many times they’ve had an affair, how many times they’ve been unfaithful this year? I don’t care about how many times they dropped off. I really don’t care. And that kind of stuff was discussed, to move to, you know, no, thank you. And secondly, I really wanted it to be spiritual and challenging. And the best thing we did together was go on trips, go on camping trips, and we’d go camping, I had some land in upstate New York and Woodstock. And we go camp on my land, for example, did a bunch of different things, and would sit there. And one of the interesting things I had, by that time, two of the men in the group were really good musicians. And we ended up forming a band, we had this band all through the 1990s, as well as this men’s group. And so they were sort of integrated. We’re on the land, and I said something and I can’t remember what it was. But one of the men, communism, in my band, jumped up across this clearing and came at me almost got physical. I see got completely outrageously pissed off physical with me. For no known I honestly, I don’t know, I offended these guys. So there are a couple of them there. That bisexual ones, strangely enough, I somehow managed to offend them, but not because of anything to do with sexuality. It was more to do with the things in my life that have been exciting. And I that I want to talk about, sometimes have to do with people whose name you would know. And it was assumed that I was making the shit out that I was lying that I was puffing myself up. And sorry, these are actually people I’ve worked with, and they’re my friends. You know, so it was not that good. And eventually what happened, there was a, there was a coup within this group, about seven or eight or nine years in, and one of the members of my band broke up the band and the men’s group in the same evening. Kicked out, they kicked out four of us. The guy who poured from, you know, Ford for the sweats. This muscular, tattooed, amazing, the man of our men, greatest poets, like the poet laureate of New York, kicked him out. Another guy who is a very significant therapist. I mean, the four of us, they said, We’re terminating the group, goodbye. And then a week later, it turned out that the other five went to dropped out. So there were another five, those five had some waiting guys. And they reformed the group and without a hiccup. They went, and my phone started ringing again. And it was like, wait a minute, this was supposed to be for life. The poet said, this was meant to be our insurance policy for the rest of our lives was meant to be our support system. So we have this group of men we could totally trust for life. Noblesville, and what’s going on? I said, Can you come over to my place? I’ve got my little pedal. We’re recording studio. Let’s sit there. So the four of us sat down and we said guess what, guys, we other rejects. We’re out. And I’m personally really relieved. Really glad. Okay, so about that wasn’t just in other words, it wasn’t personal wasn’t right. Yeah, it was something about the dynamic nature of the group. So yeah.

Clay  14:49

What I’m going to guess here you wanted to go deeper, spiritually or metaphysically. and they were afraid to go that deep to really go into their heart. Is that what was going on?

Andrew  15:10

I think they would. In other words, they were serving a group now to beat me for just got kicked out. A group would totally disagree with you. They there was sort of a status thing or something like that, or whatever it was, I probably by 95 or so 96. I was going like, Okay, I’ve just to myself, I never really brought it, I don’t think I am, I did my woman’s work back in the 70s. I did my men’s work in the 90s. Now, I want to do the men’s and women’s work, I would like to see a group, let’s have 12 people, six women, six men, knock couples. And to really, really get deep, never did it haven’t done it yet, not saying it won’t happen. And I’ll say one more thing about the second group, which was a lot more peaceful and less contentious. And I’m actually closer to more people in that second group than I am in the first group. That group also continues to this day. And when I met Connie, I said to the men, I said, you know, knew about my divorce and all that stuff. And I said, would you even consider having me bring this woman to one of our meetings, I think she has something to say to us. And I invited Connie to the meeting. It’s the only time we did it. But man, that was the most wonderful men’s group I meant meeting I’ve ever had, where we had cry when talking about that.

Connie  16:49

Well, do you guys have any thoughts you want to talk to Andrewabout not?

Dennis  16:52

Well, we want to talk with you about because you’re here with three men who are really working to both to get to their hearts and to expand compassion. And so you can give us some perspective and give us some, some some of your thoughts please call me.

Connie  17:13

Well, I’d be happy to. Because I’ve been waiting for decades for this very moment.

Connie  17:24

Thank you for inviting me on you’re seeking the compassionate new male, because I have an incredible resonance for the tender male heart. And I would say that perhaps I’m more balanced to my masculine, Anders more balanced to his feminine. He’s way more intuitive than I may more in touch with his body. So this whole dichotomy of what meat suit wearing just just makes no sense to me what’s going on right now that the women are going to lead us the men have all screwed it all up and the women get out of the way, then. I mean, that’s a travesty.

Clay  18:09

It’s a pendulum swing.

Connie  18:12

It’s a travesty. And we’re, you know, we’re not doing pendulums anymore. We’re at the fulcrum. Now we’re going up into unit of consciousness into the open heart, how are we going to open the heart of the male, when we’re telling him to get out of the way that he’s just messed everything up? It makes no sense. Look at the men who’ve done incredible and continue to do incredible work in the Open Heart arena of compassion and kindness. And I mean, they’re leaders. I’m sorry.

Dennis Tardan  18:44

But that is Connie. That’s the that’s the difference between binary thinking and being able to to hold two thoughts at the same time, we can all we can see the the extraordinary gifts that men have brought to the table, and it’s same time to also see the limitations, we can bring them both to the table, we don’t have to reject one in order to reject the other. We don’t have to reject the men in order to accept the women. This is an all in.

Connie  19:14

Exactly, exactly. And I feel that we’ve been responding to a lower frequency on the planet. Everyone has the women as well as the men. So we’ve all been doing nasty stuff to each other. We’ve it’s, as my son said, it’s been a mutual wounding, because I feel the male heart is so tender, that it’s been wounded by our childbearing practices, and by the women in its life. Okay, in their lives. Okay, so that’s my thesis is that we just don’t know the true male. We have the armored heart of the male that steps out. After a couple of years by two or three. He’s learned that he’s not supposed to cry. He’s not supposed to play with dolls is not supposed to play house. You know, he’s he’s supposed to play with trucks and, and guns and all that, you know, it’s it’s crazy for me and so when I had a boy I had my third child was boy, I was thrilled to be having a boy and I did everything in my effort in my realm to raise a compassionate male, a true male. And so when he said at age seven mom my feelings tell me I don’t belong in school. I because of the trust frequency, absolute walking in the trust frequency for me, I didn’t have the word risk in my vocabulary. You can’t when you have your son’s life in your hands, and I said, Okay, honey, Obi Wan Kenobi says trust your feelings, Luke. I guess you don’t have to go to school anymore.

Clay  21:00

And he was how old? Oh my gosh, yes.

Andrew  21:07

You are with the mother of a first grade dropout. Right here in Wichita, you hear about this first grade dropout. What he’s doing right now at this moment? Oh,

Connie  21:15

Yeah. But let me say that see, I had been spending time with visionary native elders. So for for many years, and I saw through them that we each came with a gift. And that it’s a loving universe. This is what our trust frequency book is all about to give people the tools to be able to walk in absolute trust. I knew that the universe was going to chase Johnny Marlowe around with a silver platter, with every experience he needed to become the gift he promised to bring to the world. So I didn’t have the word word risk in my vocabulary. I couldn’t with my son’s life in my hands. But I set him free. I didn’t pull him out of school because of my beliefs. I didn’t didn’t interfere with my children’s Destiny pas in any way. We we swooped indicted and did extraordinary stuff, but I followed their lead. I didn’t lead them because their soul knows what their souls destiny is. People will say How can you let a little boy like that make that kind of decision. I said, I don’t live in there. It’s not my destiny path. It’s his. And so I set him free. And my husband just I was kind of the leader in the child rearing scene, and he didn’t understand me anyway, from the time I had my spiritual awakening. And so we I set Johnny free, I let him go. And he didn’t resonate to learning to read, he didn’t resonate to any of the academic stuff. So I just let him go. And I know that we have an x ability to access information much faster than reading. Okay, so I didn’t care if you learn how to read or not. And his father had been turned off to learning to read by his father, who had demanded that he learned to read, we are so neurotic about teaching our kids how to read. And if we understand the human spirit, that we actually have to do the opposite of what we’re told to do. Or at least, that’s my spirit. If anybody tried to tell me what to do, I make sure I do the opposite. So I set him free. And ultimately, because it’s a loving universe, man showed up on our doorstep to teach Johnny how to read. So I said, Okay, universe. So he came and he was Johnny’s tutor, Johnny’s a voracious reader and amazing writer. And, and as Andrew pointed out, he’s now a flourishing photographer. In Los Angeles. He’s 36 years old.

Clay  23:56

And I’ve known him since he was 17. Man, and he’s, he’s my hero. He really has found out differently than his peers. His college buddies are in depression or drug addiction, and God knows what and he is not very interesting. What’s the difference? There’s a difference somehow

Connie  24:16

there’s a difference because we have an educational system that does not honor the human heart and the human spirit. So I went to bat for the human heart and human spirit in Aspen, Colorado to change the educational system and bring the heart and bring native american thinking into our ponderings about, okay, how are we going to what sort of educational system are we going to have? That’s going to take the human race to our actualizing our true potential as loving beings in balance with all of creation? So that’s been my experience since the exact same time that Andrew speaking of this was 1994 My son his son, My son of the same age. And so Johnny was seven. What happened though? It was January of his first grade year, when the teacher called everybody together all the kids together. And she said, Well, this is Johnny Marlowe’s last day in school. And a little girl raised her hand. And she said, But Johnny, how are you gonna get a job?

Clay  25:22

First grade,

Connie  25:24

first grade little girl, no less. She knew what she was in school for, didn’t tell the teacher what the teacher wants to hear, or you’re not going to survive. This is called survival. You know, get a job to support your family survive, get have food on the table at seven years old, this little girl, no less. So this is the arena of the trust frequency, to teach us to give us tools for walking and trust going into a higher frequency where the laws are expanded, it’s a completely different ballgame. Because I will tell you, what happened for Johnny’s life was magical. The people who showed up in Johnny’s life, Johnny becoming he was just flown out to New York with a with a team of 30 people to do this shoot in New York City from Los Angeles. He’s just turned 36, like last week. And so he’s flourishing. He just bought his own home with his earnings as a photographer, oh, help from parents or anybody and has had the, he got the girl in Aspen, and stuff like that. And so when Johnny decided that he wanted to go to school, we swapped indicted the system, actually, somebody from an alternative school said, well, Johnny, anytime you want to come, come by the school, just feel free because his sister had transferred to that school. So Johnny had the freedom to go and be a part of a system without being a part of it. Right. And so he had, he was able to be socialized and stuff like that. And so when he decided he wanted to go to school, when the student is ready, the teacher will come. That’s absolute, it’s a loving universe. Okay. That’s what the trust frequency book is all about. Johnny is the trust frequency poster child, because he said, I want to go to school. So a companion tutor showed up for him, and came and brought him up to speed academically, so he could go to school. And this, this guy was from outside of the paradigm as well. So I just want to say that when you tell the universe, what it’s up for you, the universe must comply. It loves you. Okay, but you’ve got to do it with bold, committed action. And that’s where this trust frequency set of assumptions about the nature of the universe helps us understand how loved we are, that it gives us everything we asked for, what are our requests, where we put our attention, what our assumptions are our seven A’s of, of our consciousness. So in the end, mainly, that’s bold, committed action.

Dennis Tardan  28:22

It is. I find that when I’m getting, getting to that trust place, to be able to trust to be able to step out that to be able to step out and trust. The are there little steps to doing that? Or is it just all or nothing? That’s a great question.

Connie  28:45

Oh, guess what, Dennis? Oh, I mean, yeah,

Andrew  28:53

you can’t do it in a half assed way I think gives the answer, right.

Connie  28:57

Yeah, doubt. You can’t do it because it’s by its frequency. Its vibration, is physics. There’s no judgment. It’s not.

Dennis Tardan  29:07

All I’m saying is this is that if I am tuning in, to a frequency on, let’s say, an FM radio dial, remember those old dials where you earn it, and you would start to get and you and you begin to get some of the signal, and you get some of the signal. And then you get clearer and clearer on that.

Clay  29:30

So it is a it is a practice. It’s, I’d say it’s the rare human who’s able to just grok this gray, get it in one microsecond and say, Oops, that was then this is now now I’m enlightened down here, right in the state of total trust. I doubt that. That happens very often. But it’s about testing, testing these assumptions. For example, if you take those 10 assumptions that we proposed that week You just try it on, that you have to try it on really have to be brave enough to it’s like trying on a singleton brave enough to you know, go to go to work and wearing that suit or going to the opera or whatever it is. You have to try it on 100% It’s almost like, I think there’s a relationship to let’s say you decide to become a Buddhist. You went to a new sort of Buddhist teacher and just some of your friends really got into it and you went, You can’t do that in a half assed way. You really have to take that plunge to if you’re constantly hedging your bets. My son, my rockstar, son, when he was about 12. He said, Dad, I’m going to be a rock star. I’m going to be a musician. I said, you assurance and yeah, said good do that. He said, What about college said if you feel it, do it, but if you don’t, that’s okay. You could have a plan B. But if you have a plan B if you have a fallback position, you’ll probably fall back. So that kid right now, last I heard of was in Miami recording with a whalers about Molly’s whalers. He made that commitment. He now he, he’s trapped. That’s a term we used to use in South Africa. He thrashed school, he took the price when he graduated from high school in languages, mostly in French and Spanish. He was like the languages guy. And then he went to offensives he didn’t go to college. Now his older sister did go to college. So that was her path. She did that she’s a big deal. Lawyer right now. That was her path. She did that. And all it Yeah, I have five kids. And they’re each radically different each from the other. Now we’re all raised for the same basic principles. And I thought, Connie story of raising her kids in this really alternative way. I really thought that was what I was going to do. When I came to this country. It was at the time it was in the 60s that student rebellions. Kids were not happy with what colleges and schools were doing to them. And they were rebelling, and I was very interested in that field. I don’t know if you’ve heard of Summerhill. It was an experimental school in England. It was the time of those experimental schools. How can we completely can the Waldorf system, all these different ways of alternative ways of teaching our kids? I thought, I’m absolutely going to raise my kids, I’m gonna have a whole bunch of kids and I’m going to raise them in it’s completely alternative manner. I was wrong. Because when it came to do it, we were living in the Hamptons, there were alternative schools that were really expensive. There was no way we could do five kids. And the kids were thriving in the system. Yeah, his kids again, right. They really thrived within the system and then emerge, and we were hippies, and not even Americans. So the kids got a lot of flack at the beginning. By the beginning of high school, those kids were each being challenged by their schoolmates, and put down and your parents are just stupid hippies and organic vegetarians. What the hell’s that? etc. And by halfway alone, things began to change. And by the end of school, everybody else wanted to be like them. They honestly were like the leaders, each of them in their own way. Who were the were leaders. Now in my music musician, son shows up those kids from school artists biggest fans, in front of their stage.

Connie  33:33

Yeah, and it’s interesting because I wasn’t a hippie. Okay. I was private school, New England, old family, Mayflower descendant life, my ancestors started colleges, Bowdoin College, etc. And, yeah, but I had I, I say, I was sitting on top of the Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, right? You know, the triangle. You’re on top. And I have a responsibility. And that’s one thing these schools, New England’s women’s schools teach you is, of course, with privilege responsibility. Okay, I was sitting up here waving, hey, how do you do, I had the power to let my son drop out of school freedom, the freedom to do that, even though my parents disagreed and my sister was gonna report me to social services, whatever it was, I didn’t care, because I came with a job to do that is raised humans that are going to contribute to society. Well, number one, number two is shift the consciousness of humanity. I mean, we’re big picture thinkers, right. So we’ve got a big job to do. And so I could listen to my children’s hearts, listen to their spirits and follow those impulses for them open the doors. That was my job to open the door for their destiny path. So one daughter, instead of going to college, went off to China was smuggled into Tibet, and etc, she ultimately put herself through college and she’s now in Amsterdam. Now, yeah, for a fortune 500 company that she because she got a, an MBA and all that. And my other daughter, she had her destiny path as a writer and as a this horseback rider, and she’s now supporting our family in Aspen, Colorado, with my granddaughter, and her husband, but each one has their own destiny path, we can’t be channeling them into this educational system that says, you know, if you get this on this test, you’re okay. And if you don’t on that test, you’re not and you know, your trajectory, etc, you have to have the courage and the trust, to walk in freedom, because we can do that individually. It doesn’t matter what the rest of the culture is doing. If your vibration is up, you can you do anything. Because the rules that apply to you like Henry David Thoreau said, the laws that apply to you will be expanded, or new laws will be made in your favor, and you will live with the license of a higher order of beings. That’s in his conclusion to Walden, I quoted that last time. But that’s when you walk confidently in the direction of your dreams. So it’s just up to us to give people the courage to go there. And, and as Andrew said, it is a process. For me, it’s like, absolute. So I’m not really one to speak, because I it hasn’t been a process for me fear was never one of my things. And, you know, I just came in for a different ride. And, but it is a process, like Andrew says,

Clay  36:49

what I’m hearing is that each of you have created an environment for a young person to, to develop, I call it, let’s call it solar energy and their lunar energy. You know, traditionally the solar, you know, leads, you know, that’s the, traditionally the male energy and the, the lunar, the, the, the woman the female energy, but we have all have both, and what what I’m getting from this conversation is that you allowed whatever that was, wherever they were to find, find its own space, its own space to not be forced your your guys so you got to follow this path, you’re a woman, you got to go this way. But to find themselves along here, and I know y’all gave guidance along the way, but you were kind of tapping this side tab on the side, and letting them find and develop their heart as well as their head and then integrating in finding their own equilibrium within that integration. If I could turn the clock back boy,

Dennis Tardan  38:09

I understand that. But one, one of the things that that I miss that I feel like I missed when I was growing up, was that I, I went very much I looked up at in in the 50s I looked up at adults as a child and when they really don’t know what they’re doing, they really don’t know what’s going on. So I’m going to take this myself, I’m not going to really listen to what they said I’m just going to end and the only the end the challenge with that is that I never learned as a child what value there could be in hard work, how what value there could be in delayed gratification, I didn’t get that I didn’t get the chance you know really defeat to you know, like fight when you do that that beautiful mandola behind you to be able to have that sense of being able to do a piece and work on it and build it if I didn’t get that that instantaneous gratification so therefore it took me a while before I got until I was in my 30s that I began to see that experience of being able to now was felt that if I could have had someone that could have sat with me and helped and modeled for me and helped me to go to what the value of that delayed gratification so that’s the learning that I’m getting that I’m getting now that I did not get as a child that I just went I just dismissed dismissed

Connie  39:40

Guess what? It’s your souls journey. Everything has been perfect. I agree. I souls journey I know what if and if only. Okay, here I am world and I’ve got this work to do and get that work done because the earth is moving into to a higher frequency, we got to get that shadow work done that less than that. Okay? And if only and what if, etc.

Dennis Tardan  40:10

I don’t go I don’t go there, Connie. I really don’t. I am so appreciative of everything that got me here today.

Connie  40:17

Yeah. Sweet, sweet, that’s important.

Andrew  40:20

So Dennis, you’re, you’re bringing up for me the idea of the mentor of the wise elder in the village, you know, where a young woman or a young man has an elder to go and, and just sit with and learn from, maybe I’m gonna trade or learn a technique or talk about spiritual matters or talk about leadership or talk about marriage or childbirth, whatever the subject might be. Right. And it’s something that I think I think we lack that we’ve lost as sort of white Westerners in particular, I think the Native Americans have more of that still, to this day, despite everything that they have struggled through, they’ve kept certain things, Connie, and I believe she’d agreed we we get a lot of inspiration from our indigenous friends. There’s something there in the non white non western world that has real value that we tend to do we, the white Westerners, and to denigrate that to like, you don’t have a religion, you’re not, you know, you’re not very bright, you’re primitive, and all of those things. And I’m so delighted that we now live in a time when we are have woken up, I think it started back in the 60s, and maybe started earlier. But in the 60s, where we suddenly started paying attention to the Native Americans in this country, for example, going and sitting at a peyote ceremony in a teepee, those kinds of extraordinary experiences that are missing. So if my kids, I know one complaint my kids had about me, or at least my middle boy. And that said, I didn’t give him enough and holding support. I trusted him too much. I gave them a very clear, they had a strong one who was great. And what I gave them was the instruction that you are free. However, with freedom comes self discipline. Think about that, to my boys. Think about that. You are responsible for your for the results of your actions. So if you go get go down a path, and my youngest boy nearly did. He actually is one of his best friends just died just a month ago, over here on heroin overdose. I mean, there was heroin in that Hamptons community. And in those getting into drugs, kids were getting into breaking into places to get money to buy drugs, and with those kinds of things going on. And of all my kids, only my one son went to the edge of that. And we saw that we had an idea. And when your local cop, a policeman, and we called him and we said, look, I think our son’s maybe getting to hang out with the wrong people. And long story short, a week later, son comes home from school walks into the living room, there’s a uniformed officer there. And we just introduced him and left. That did the job.

Clay  43:29

Interesting. I want to ask a question. Because you’re touching around a subject that that keeps coming up in my mind. And first of all, I I think that we’ve got a population, the Western civilization, that we have a population of a lot of adult children. They’ve they’ve not gone through the ritual change from childhood to adulthood. I would say it’s initiation. Now, initiation is a loaded term, because it brings up a lot of misplaced activity that just gotten a bad rap. And so initiation when I ask people about it, or initiation or rite of passage, well, what was it? Oh, when I got my driver’s license? No. Yesterday you were a boy. And today you’re a man and you take on the mantle of a man. You can still live what’s in your heart to live. But there’s never been that that not never. I can’t say that. But less and less there is that that demarcation Point. And I wanted to get your thoughts on that.

Clay  45:04

So let me just say this. I grew up in Africa. At the age of three, I was transplanted from England where I was born to South Africa and grew up in the midst of a culture, specifically the Zulu people who have very strong age groups. Yes, they have these initiations at different ages, and the boys and the girls, but no more about the boys. And the boys will have a circumcision. Yep. At puberty, for example, which is a painful, dangerous thing. Yes. And they would go through this together as a group, Nelson Mandela went through this, he spoke about that. I ended up getting a degree in social anthropology because I realized I was more than a science guy. But I realized I was actually more interested in human beings and our potential than I necessarily was in physics, or math, or chemistry, which were my fields before that. So those cultures have very specific systems of mentorship. Absolutely rigid Age, Group initiations, when you reach a certain age, such and such happens when you’re a little boy, you’re looking after the chickens later on, you’re looking after the goats later on you with the cows. Right. And later on, you’re out hunting the lion, and then you’re allowed to marry. And none of those things can happen before a certain time. And before you’ve passed the test as its as,

Clay  46:29

right. Right. And, yeah,

46:31

and so much that’s so radically different from our culture,

Clay  46:34

right. And so, and I witnessed this in, in Kenya, when I was there, I saw it on the news, a woman newscasters. And this season, we will have initiation ceremonies, for 20,000, young boys, and all the hospitals and all those support systems are in place for this. And what I learned was that, yeah, they’re publicly circumcised. And if they flinch, they bring shame on their parents. Now, in that culture, for that time, in that tradition, you know, I don’t judge it. But there’s something between that extreme and nothing, right. And unfortunately, we’re swinging towards this nothing. And so we’ve got a bunch of adult children running around. And unfortunately, they’re in politics, they’re leading corporations, etc, etc.

Clay  47:39

And they were raised by women, by the way, because most of us men in this culture have to go to work. And so I was, right. If you spoke to my, the mother of my children, she would probably say you were an absentee father. And I said, Yes. Because I had to go to the city and work and bring home the bacon and bring home the money. And mom was very responsible for how other kids, including the boys were raised. Sure, yeah.

Connie  48:07

Yeah, I just like to say something. Because I always bemoaned the fact that I wasn’t part of a culture that had tradition. Okay, so what you’re saying, and then this grandmother, in native grandmother came into my life. And she said, Yeah, traditions over, I was told not, she said, I was told not to bring my all my ceremonial implements out here to Colorado, with me, because it’s over. It’s a prison. And his, you know, you have to do this at a certain time, you have to do that. Blah, blah, blah. You know, so she and this was in the 90s. And so, I think it’s just important to one thing, recognize that each culture, each color of man has a role to play in the evolution of consciousness, and the evolution of the cosmos, because everything we do affects the cosmos. Moving this in science now that the human heart and our emotions and everything actually were the same energy is all the cosmos. So we are in process and this is from the egos perspective, from Native perspective, the high visionary elder perspective, that every race has had a job to do in this process.

Clay  49:36

Well, and that’s a whole that’s a whole nother nother realm to get into and, and it’s a it’s a tough one to talk about. Especially, I mean, Dennis, you know, you and I, of course, have been in that’s been on the show before, and so I get that, but I’ll tell you what, Here’s what I think I’m, well, I’ve learned it with, with willing, Cynthia, at the gender equity and reconciliation that we’re all wounded.

Andrew  50:12

Yeah, you got mutual wounding

Clay  50:15

that regardless if every one of us is wounded, or wounded, through patriarchy through however it is. And that’s our common ground. And if I can look at you, Connie, and say, Here, a wounded soul, you know, I have people look at me, so we’ll play, you’ve got everything going for you, you’re privileged, white western male. Well, I wanted to, you know, and here’s this not comparing loads, but that’s our, that’s our common ground. And if we can look at each other beyond the surface, and recognize it, that suffering, we both share, and maybe there’s hope at this higher level of consciousness. Dennis,

Dennis Tardan  51:07

I completely agree, because that’s what I, I get into that comparison mode. And that’s where I want to, because I’m a, I believe that we can this, this is where where the the whole piece of, of that comes in. Connie about about white shaming, and how this all this work, I don’t believe that that’s that’s the process at all, we each have to carry our own responsibility for who we are and how we behave to day and behave like that. But you know, and I cannot know what it’s like to be a woman, I cannot know what it’s like to just say to a child, but I can be your ally, I can be your ally, and make sure that your rights are protected, and make sure that your rights are protected, and do the best that I can to be able to do that. I can’t know another person’s, but I can be your ally, I can be your ally. And I can also walk in my own perspective, in my own truth, to be able to uplevel my consciousness on each and every day, whether I’m sitting in a meditative chair, or whether or not I’m going and helping someone across the street. I have both of those things to do. That is my work to do.

Clay  52:25

I’m going to pick up on that, Dennis, because I want to go back to Connie, something that she said early on, about how you grew up in Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. And it’s incredible to me, yeah, you say I was at the top. And that’s how your your family was? And look at what your family brought. for the greater good.

Connie  52:52

Absolutely, you know, they gave away the family fortune to the people of Maine, parks and mountains. And that’s right giveaway was huge for them. That’s right,

Dennis Tardan  53:04

That’s part of the deal of really understanding what is enough. And also, I love what you said about the about returning those who have those to whom have a lot has been given a lot of expected. And they returned back to the process. And that that’s one of my great quest is to ask people, What is enough? What would be enough? And it doesn’t matter what your number is, would you know it when you got there? Does Jeff Bezos know when he gets there? When he you know, okay, I have enough. That’s all I need. And all me do we actually ask ourselves that question in the Western world. What is enough?

Connie  53:57

Our whole system is based on the problem of scarcity, our whole economic system, okay, so when the scarcity does fear, will there be enough to morrow? So then we start hoarding, okay, so in the trust frequency and a native way, the giveaway is huge. And in my family, that giveaway, okay?

Dennis Tardan  54:20

That’s circulation that things circulate in our body. What things circulate in the universe, why would they not circulate here? Why would that one place no longer be a law?

Connie  54:33

Yeah, and and it’s a it’s a, again, it’s vibration, its frequency. So when you’re in that higher frequency, there’s more abundance and you can fathom Jesus with the loaves and the fishes, etc. John Lennon with imagine, you know, they’re telling us they’re showing us something, there’s another ballgame. And we were in a lower frequency of scarcity and separation. And so that fear is So that’s what created these systems that we’ve responded to and played ball with. Right in order to survive, right? A little girl and 77 year old girl, how are you going to get a job Johnny, if you don’t go to first grade,

Andrew  55:14

Loaves and fishes has a problem, and that is what are you going to do with 40 bushels of leftovers? I mean, that’s the problem. The problem is so much abundance that you can’t believe it.

Clay  55:26

Well, you’re so so right. And I mean, we’ve just, we barely even scratched the surface of this whole topic. Oh, yeah. In the men’s work. You know, I mean, we touched into that. There’s so much, much more in such a dynamic time for men, for young men. And for the second half of lifers. Absolutely. It’s just it’s an incredible time of change. And I’m heartened because I hear more and more and more of men’s work that’s being done. That is heart centered, knowing what you’re doing really healing in. And I feel like it’s so wonderful. So Dennis, back to you.

Dennis Tardan  56:15

Well, I am just so grateful. I’m just I’m so grateful that we get an opportunity, Andrew and Connie to be able to continue the conversations about all of our vibrant our vibrations and how we are bringing more compassion onto the planet because compassion has to be part of this vibrational frequency to I mean, it has to be part of who we are. And that’s what we are in search of. And that’s what we’re in search of, without and within, as we said on the other broadcast, and I’m so grateful that you would give us with another hour of your time another hour the graceful all the links for everyone who’s watching or listening will be on the on the webpage and and we look forward to continuing conversations and also we might even be able to meet some of your family and bring out have a little bit of this intergenerational conversation along the way.

Clay  57:06

I’d be willing to ask my boys if they come on.

Dennis Tardan  57:10

Good. Hi, I’d love to be able to do anyway thank you for thank you clay for inviting me along the journey of in search of the new compassionate male and Connie and Andrew, thank you so much for giving us this time today. And we will it will not be long before we will see everyone again and thank you so much for joining us in search of the new compassionate male. We’ll see you next time.

Clay  57:36

Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male on your favorite podcast Station.

EP106: Connie and Andrew (Part 1) Accessing the Trust Frequency

EP106: Connie and Andrew (Part 1) Accessing the Trust Frequency

Connie Baxter Marlow & Andrew Cameron Bailey are original thinkers, writers, photographers, filmmakers, futurists, climate “solutionaries” and inspirational public speakers. Their explorations into the essence of Reality have led to a unique articulation of the conscious, loving, abundant nature of the Universe. In their book The Trust Frequency: Ten Assumptions for a New Paradigm. Connie and Andrew present a system of cosmological axioms, informed by indigenous cosmology, quantum science and Eastern and Western mysticism, which resolve key paradoxes that have kept humanity from walking in balance with Universal Law and with an open heart. They offer straightforward, practical tools for accessing The Trust Frequency, an alternative reality where the soul’s destiny awaits, the laws are expanded, and there is more balance, beauty, joy and abundance than we can fathom.

They apply The Trust Frequency paradigm to the evolutionary aspect of relationships in their online course The Dance of Souls: The Relationship (R)Evolution

 

 

 

Their documentary film IN SEARCH OF THE FUTURE: What do the Wise Ones Knowis a companion piece to The Trust Frequency book and features visionary indigenous elders, Western scientists and futurists.

They have presented their work at IONS, SAND, COSM, ISSSEEM, Unity Village Chapel, New Dimensions Radio, Eagle Quetzal Condor Global Convergence, Consciousness of Immortality Conference, The Thoreau Society, Parliament of the World’s Religions, World Unity Week 2020/2021 and numerous other venues.

 

 

Transcriot:

Connie  00:07

And Henry David Thoreau says in his conclusion to Walden when one walks competently in the direction of his dreams, you will pass a certain boundary. He will experience a success unexpected in common hours. The laws that apply to him will be expanded, or new laws will be made in his favor, and he will live with the license of a higher order of beings. This is a key quote for understanding it’s a different ballgame. There’s new laws

Clay  00:43

Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay Boykin calm for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male.

Dennis  01:08

Hello World. It’s me Dennis and we are in search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this particular podcast and I’m here with the founder of insert to the new compassionate male clay Boykin Hi Clay.

Clay  01:22

Hi, Dennis. This is a very special day. Today we have Connie Baxter Marlow, and Andrew Cameron Bailey with us. And oh, right, yes, they have a wonderful background, we’re going to talk overarching conversation is going to be on the trust frequency. And I’ve always wondered, Is it possible to change our mind? You know, is it possible to think differently, and I think we’re going to speak about some of that today. So welcome, Connie, and welcome, Andrew.

Dennis  01:55

Oh, so glad to have you all here. You know, I, one of the things when I began my my study of quantum physics, and from an amateur level, but I began to be curious about quantum consciousness about what that might be like, because what we what I would, what I pay attention to grows and how that works, and how that might relate. And then when I heard one of your YouTubes, and when I heard you talking about that, I was very excited about how this might work. Because we all exhibit a free of field, a frequency, and then how that works together. So it’s, it’s exciting for me to be able to, to hear from you and hear from what your research and your studies and your practicality has been. Well, it’s great to be here. We’re thrilled to be talking about the trust frequency, and our book, the trust frequency 10 assumptions for a new paradigm. Yeah, talk about changing your mind, change your assumptions, and the world changes with you. I was gonna say that.

Andrew  03:07

Exactly. So you guys are so much speaking our language in so many ways that I’m expecting you to say things. And you do but they’re subtly different, such as, when Connie and I got together in 2003, one of the first things we did was we went to Africa, and got together with the Bushmen of the Kalahari, those amazing little people from that film, The Gods Must Be Crazy. Oh, gosh, and made this movie and the title of the movie is in search of the future. What do the wise one wise ones No, but in search of a search of something, so you can search as a compassionate male in search of the future. It has been said that humanity is about to undergo a major transformation, a major paradigm shift or a quantum leap in consciousness. And looking around and reading the news, I think that’s a very good idea. And so our technique for seeking the future was to go to the world’s oldest people, and sit down with the oldest members of those communities. And ask him these questions. We didn’t even have language in common. And it’s a beautiful film in search of the future.

Connie  04:21

And we come in contact with so many visionary elders prior to that, that we went to our friends, because I saw through the visionary elders who came into my life when I was seeking the missing pieces of the paradigm, because I felt that our paradigm was out of balance that it had holes in it. It couldn’t explain paranormal, it couldn’t explain things. I’m like, I’m not basing my life on a paradigm that can explain things. So I went in seeking the missing pieces. And what happened was, I went to Europe looking for them and all I saw was the same kind of thinking and then visionary elders. started coming into my life Native American elders. And I saw through them an expanded paradigm, a conscious loving universe. So this film came out of that. And Andrew had spent extensive time with elders and various Native people, and especially the Bushmen.

Andrew  05:18

I think you have to if you’re going to go in search of human consciousness, you need to do the best you can to find the wise ones, as we call them, capital W, capital, wise ones who otherwise ones, where do you find them? And what do they say, and, and listen, and listen, and listen, and put it to practice in your personal life,

Clay  05:42

Heading out with the In Search of the such powerful way to go about it. For us, it’s been, for me, when that came up was, you know, I’m not the expert, I’m not going to go out there and tell everybody who the compassionate male is. I’m in search of. And it’s so much the same for you. It’s, it’s a seeking, and it’s inviting for people to come in. And, and to join you in that search. So that’s wonderful.

Dennis  06:10

And it’s a searching without, and within, yes, has to be both. It has to be bi directional, omnidirectional. Or I’m missing things. And that’s what I love about because that’s what I love about the your practice. And especially being out I’m 74. So I’m getting a chance to, to experience the elderhood experience this this time in my life and to learn that, boy, that sales pitch about aging is all wrong. I am having the time of my life. I’m learning more. I’m growing more. I’m more excited. I’m making more mistakes. I’m growing, I’m looking at I get to be here today with you.

Andrew  06:56

And don’t tell clay but Life begins at 70.

Dennis  07:01

He’s got he’s hanging in there, he’s just come on and listen to your elders.

Clay  07:08

Well, I just celebrated my 68th birthday, for the record.

Andrew  07:14

And he’s getting it was my 78th. And it was funny 75th

Dennis  07:19

Congratulations. Now you had when when we’re talking about the elder because there’s so much about what I’ve learned about about science and in, in, like, I look back, and when I read the Bible, and I look at the miracles, and it looks to me like he’s using that Jesus is using quantum principles. He’s using the principles of entanglement. And he’s using that. And so much of what we’re talking about with the elders is that we’re actually remembering, rather than discovering a new,

Connie  07:54

I would say Jesus was a Wayshower, into this frequency that we call the trust frequency, when our 10 assumptions for new paradigm bring people a construct on the nature of the universe, that takes us beyond duality. Okay, it’s a huge leap, to get your vibration level up to that level, beyond right and wrong, good and evil, that there’s only love. And what we say is we just don’t understand the nature of that love, which is unconditional. Which means it gives us everything we ask for. And then what are our requests? Well, our requests are our vibration. And we say it’s our consciousness, and we have seven aspects of our consciousness that determine our frequency and vibration, and thereby our reality. So that’s what we’re bringing to the table.

Clay  08:52

That’s wonderful. I got a question. Because when I hear the the title of the book, the trust frequency, when I think of trust, I think of my trust and another person. But you’re, you’re you’re using trust in a much bigger way. Can you talk about that?

Andrew  09:11

Let me put it in four words, trust the loving universe. Okay, go there. It’s big. It’s big as it gets. Because there’s only love in this construct that we’re bringing forth.

Connie  09:26

This unconditional loving nature of the universe that loves us so much. It gives us everything we asked for. But what are our requests and what was our overarching act of free will. When we incarnated that gave the loving universe permission to take us on our journey to wholeness to put us through hell so put us on our journey to wholeness which is our journey to self love and self acceptance and alignment with our divinity. And our purpose. So it’s it’s huge. And this is the basis of our course, we have an online course called The dance of souls, that that applies these principles to our relationships. Because then we become the beneficiary as opposed to the victim, we get out of victim consciousness, we realize that we gave an overarching act of free will to go on this journey.

Dennis  10:28

When when you set out to design a course, can you take us back to when it was just the germ of an idea when you were sitting together and saying, you know, we need to this might be make a course and how you went about this process of creation in the evolution into what it is today?

Andrew  10:48

So very personal unconscious part. Yeah. Your relationship with your daughters? Yeah.

Connie  10:53

No, my daughter’s my father, my husband, my life journey. I saw that because the trust frequency I live in that place. So that this construct is my reality of absolute. Lee. Okay. No doubt, I have no doubt. Okay. So I mean, that’s the Achilles heel to getting to this frequency. So I saw through three generations of behaviors, that there was a pattern in my life, not me blaming them. But I had work to do. And that’s what this course is about. It’s about going inside and seeing the work we have to do to come to self love to accept those parts of ourselves. We don’t love Yeah. So I that this course just came about like, Okay, we don’t want to do a trust whole big trust frequency course. So let’s do this little course, this applied applied trust frequency, to actually put it into effect.

Andrew  12:02

Eyes, I observed this evolve in its present form, through you darling, with observing your daughter’s and that often tough relationship that they had. And then you wrote something about to each of them to say, look, look what’s going on here. See, that’s it your souls? It’s the dance of souls. That’s the way I remember it. Yeah, absolutely.

Connie  12:29

And, and, and I have been in our dance of souls, big time. I mean, we’re in their 70s. And we’ve both been very conscious for decades, and we’ve worked all the stuff out without previous partners. Those good folks we call our spice, which is a rule of spouse. Nice. And we thought we had the baggage fee.

Andrew  12:55

Yeah.

Dennis  12:59

I love that.

Dennis  13:03

What I love about what I love about relationship is relationships teach me so much about me.

Andrew  13:11

That was the purpose perhaps. Absolutely. And that’s with a capital A,

Dennis  13:16

I love your concept of the universe, because I also find out that the universe, one of my teachers told me, he said the universe has only one answer to every question. And that’s yes. I’m small. I did everything so hard. I took a ticket. Yes. Oh, beautified? Anything, anything at acid, it’s loves me so much. It will give me whatever I asked. So then I have to, so it becomes it takes me out of my victimhood and says, I must ask a better question.

Connie  13:52

Wow. Well, there you are. Because if we’re asking the question, Am I a complete moron? What’s the answer? Yes.

Connie  14:01

Yes, because people will come into your life to show you what a moron you are. So think about your question because your soul actually magnetizes the behavior of others, actually creates the other behaving the others, so that we can see those moron parts that we feel are morons will actually even flip something they say, to take it in as them calling us a moron. It is. It is amazing, because I go ahead, Clay.

Clay  14:28

Okay. So I want to I want to try something here. So you’re talking about the universe saying yes. And in our present life in our relationships. And you said something earlier that triggered in me, generational healing, I think that’s what you were referring to. And so, like, right now, there’s four of us. All the generations behind us, are sitting with us, and are speaking through us. And so that generational healing is One part of it, and then being able to show up with a knowing that the truth is, is that the universe loves us. And that’s how we show up with one another. There’s two, two big things we got to do there. Well, not only the universe loves us, but we are magnificent aspects of the Divine.

Connie  15:24

And daily by the door, here I am, all of me, not just the parts that I think you want to see, because then I’m a good girl, and I’m smart, and I get along, etc. But all the while underneath, I’m saying, Oh, she’s stupid. And she’s, you know, this is fake and everything we get, we have bring the whole of us that’s what our course is for is to bring people into loving all of themselves understanding that we came on this journey, and getting out of victim, right, and beneficiary. And beloved,

Clay  16:03

and would it be true to say that, when you when you talk about victim, my mind went to fear

Andrew  16:12

You go. So fear is actually the opposite of trust. And they can really live in the same room. If you’re in trust, the fear goes away. And if you’re in fear, the trust goes away, we’ll see you might as well make a choice of, you know, in the direction of trust, right.

Dennis  16:30

And one of the things I want to ask you about because I want to go back to this word doubt that you were talking about because I have I am because I am I, I don’t like being this way, but I am at times a binary thinker that I can think of okay, what what is how can I be doubt less? And and so what I tried to think of it, and it would this work on a continuum, that that it is either full trust or doubt, but I can be somewhere on the continuum that I can move toward trust. Can you help me with that?

Connie  17:13

Well, change your assumptions, please help the world change radically. That’s exactly what I’m asking you to do. So our construct and we’re just saying this as a construct on the nature of the universe, we’re not saying it’s absolutely true, we’re saying take it as absolutely true, and see what happens, just see what happens. And then your mind can align with your heart. And you can act from that place. Because you have one has a construct on the nature of the universe that goes beyond duality. And it’s a practice. So along that, thank you. That’s it. So this is when in the recovery movement, when they talk about act as if this, this is this as

Clay  18:03

well, and in what I’ve come to realize is how much of my life I spent disaster planning. You know, well, what if this doesn’t work? What if this doesn’t happen? Anticipating failure? So I’m bringing failure

Andrew  18:19

you’re creating, because our minds are unbelievably powerful? And if we put our attention on failure, guess what? Right? Yes, we’re not gonna make it.

Connie  18:29

And Andrew raised his kids. He taught them don’t have a fallback position,

Connie  18:34

Or you going to fall back? So what is it you want to do? Oh, you want to be a rock star? You want to make your living doing your music do that? Same and people will say no, no, but get a degree in accounting, just in case that doesn’t work out? Nope.

Clay  18:52

Right. Well, and and to add to that, you know, I found that I wasn’t prepared for success, because I was planning for failure.

Andrew  19:03

You put your focus on failure, right? And what if, and all of those fear based connotations that we indulge in, and the more time and energy we put dead on more powerful Cisely than that. So it’s really about what we believe it’s about our worldview. It’s about our fundamental assumptions, those aspects of reality that we have no doubts of back to the doubt word. And assumption is something that we believe to be true without question. They say if my fundamental assumption is I’m not good enough, because my dad’s smack me when I was three years old, and I had my hand on the cookie jar. And he said, You’re a little shit. I guess I can say that. I’m absolutely right. And I put that deep in my soul. And now I am 60 years old, and I’m still behaving from that wound that I received back then because I have this really deep, hidden subterranean assumption that I’m not good enough. I’m a little ship. Yep. Connie asked my mom, my beloved beautiful mom and my mom was about 90. In South Africa. She said, What was Andrew like, as a little boy? What did she say? He was a little devil. And can you imagine that my parents abstained from telling me that. So I was programmed as a little boy, when I was a little devil, that means bad, I think. I mean, sure, you could, you could make a career of that.

Connie  20:41

But that was his course. And this understanding he has he incarnated to those parents is so as to his parents to say that he took on that wound, because he came in feeling like a little devil, he wasn’t good enough. So he had to. It’s a whole lifetime process of freewill, and a conscious loving universe, taking us on this journey to wholeness and self love and self acceptance,

Andrew  21:10

Which is what your course is all about. Yeah, yeah. And the cross is very specifically about relationships. So this relationship here a marriage, yes, man woman relationship is one of the types of relationships that we as humans, we all have either relationship with myself, Yes, ultimately, only one relationship. And that’s my relationship with the universe. Except there’s no such thing. There’s no separation, that implies that I am separate from the universe, actually, the only relationship there is, is the relationship of the universe with itself. And each of its countless manifestations of which we are each one. But this one is specifically to do with human relationships, whether it’s a partner, a lover, a child, a parent, a boss, universe, circumstance, but the universe is taking it to that to that highest level, the course is very practical. It’s very grounding or grounded. I would say that it’s extremely useful to anybody in the psychotherapeutic or counseling world, marriage counseling, just to take an example

Dennis  22:21

On either side of it right on either whether you are whether you are you are a therapist, or whether or not you are you are a someone who is seeking counseling. Well think of think of a therapist who has this in his or her toolbox. He has a technique. Hey, Fred, Hey, Sally, look at you. You’re yelling at each other. You used to be madly in love with each other. And now you’re thinking about getting a divorce? What’s going on? And what if Sally is riff holding up a mirror to you, Fred? And, Sally, what if Fred’s holding up a mirror to you and you were attracted to each other for this very specific work? It’s not easy. It’s off. Sometimes it’s not fun. But it’s the work we came here to do, to know, to grow spiritually, to grow emotionally, to develop things like emotional intelligence, and to get real and real. By the time we’re real, we’ve lost a judgment about what’s bad, what’s good. What’s, you know, it’s like the Rumi quote, will not feel beyond right doing and wrong. Going to the point where everything that happens in my life, Clay, you walk in my front door, and you start cursing me out. And my immediate thought is, I’m going to start cursing right back at you. What if I could actually be wise enough to say, thank you, man. By the way, did you know how handsome you are? I just I just saw your beauty for the first time. And I saw it. You had this like angry look on your face. But I think practicing gratitude and I’m actually getting a little better at it. And I can you can you really challenged me and thank you, man. I didn’t know I had to go there.

Clay  24:08

And that’s your ability to show up wholehearted?

Connie  24:12

No hard dog. Not on easy.

Andrew  24:18

Working this one, because the trigger is a trigger is our son that it’s our work to do. So the trigger is huge. So in that instance, he didn’t trigger into reaction. He just went Oh, hey, Clay, you’re looking great today. How are you welcome. You know, instead of triggering into defense and triggering into making you bad and wrong, you know, that whole dance

Clay  24:46

and what you’re talking about is being able to separate a fraction of a millisecond of the body fight or flight response. And actually come at it at a higher consciousness level,

Andrew  25:03

from a higher from a higher frequency, higher frequency, right. So we have the ability to operate, anywhere, there’s a sliding scale all the way from infinitely high to infinitely low, we can be in our darkest hell of our choice, we have that freedom, we actually have the absolute freedom to be as miserable as we can imagine, we have that freedom, and to be as joyful as we can imagine. And it’s a practice to, when I’m not functioning the way I’d like to when I’m not putting out into the world of beauty and the love that’s in my heart that’s hiding here, because I’m afraid to do so maybe I was rejected at some point, and then through practice through, so there’s a certain amount of sort of intellectual understanding, that’s helpful. That’s where our book is useful. These 10 assumptions for a new paradigm, we just flipped 10, there was something called the 10 commandments. And he said, Well, how about the 10? Assumptions? Perfect. Like, I asked this question. When was the last time somebody walked up to you on the street a stranger and said, Excuse me? What are your 10? most fundamental beliefs? We don’t do that in this culture. We don’t do that. Do we? As as I can’t? I don’t know a culture that does. I don’t think that Tibetan Buddhists do that. I don’t know. So what if we could identify 10? Assumptions, current assumptions that are pretty foundational to most people in most cultures, and then flip them on the other side? I’m a science guy. So I was raised to believe that the universe is this big mechanical clockwork machine. It doesn’t even know I exist. What’s the total opposite of that? conscious, loving universe? Which totally, I’m, I’m not just it doesn’t just love me, because that implies separation. I am it. It’s me. I am a manifestation of the universe. And therefore I am that love and I am so loved. It’s almost like being in the womb of my mother. Life. I’m so protected. I’m so supportive. I’m so loved. How different is that from thinking of the universe as a mechanical thing that doesn’t exist?

Clay  27:25

Mm. You know, you know, yeah, it is now. Can you? Can you give us an idea of like, what, what one of these assumptions is give us a peek inside here.

Andrew  27:38

We could run down the whole town without too much trouble.

Connie  27:42

Well, we’ve spoken of, there’s only love. That’s assumption number one. We live in a conscious loving universe, there is only love.

Andrew  27:52

On a quantum level. It’s consistent tirely of love. So we’re not talking about holding hands here. We’re talking about the primordial energy, that creative energy that has resulted in this glorious universe that we’re about to energy, his love for the oil. Exactly. There’s nothing else there is nothing else at all.

Connie  28:14

I will say that but what about the stuff that we see as not love? See, we resolve that paradigm. So next one, but go on go on, Dennis.

Dennis  28:22

No, I want you to go on.

Connie  28:27

So the second assumption is the universe loves us unconditionally. It gives us everything we asked for. And then the third assumption is we create reality by the power of our consciousness. And then the fourth assumption is the seven aspects of our consciousness that begin with a that are our requests to the conscious loving universe, they create our vibration. Okay, so what are the seven aspects of our consciousness? Awareness? Uh, huh. Assumptions, assumptions, attention, attitude, attitude, alignment, action, and allow allowing, stepping back and trusting the universe that God got our back. So I can say those seven aspects in one sentence.

Clay  29:24

Please do, please.

Andrew  29:26

There’s the first four assumptions and the fourth one is more of a, an invitation to understand consciousness by breaking it down into these seven attributes or aspects starting with you go to the dictionary, the only one in the dictionary is the word awareness. Here’s a sentence.

Connie  29:45

Okay, so the sentence that has all seven aspects of our consciousness that create our vibrational level and thereby our frequency and thereby our reality is this. With expanded awareness and accurate assumptions, we choose our attitude. Consciously direct our attention, align with our highest inner promptings take committed action and allow the loving universe to manifest beyond our wildest dreams.

Clay  30:40

That’s beautiful.

Andrew  30:42

So this is like a toolkit that you can sort of say, okay, awareness. Yeah, that’s an active. Am I awake? If I’m fast asleep, or I’m drugged out, I’m not aware? And what do we allow into our awareness? And then where am I putting my attention? And what am I assumptions on the subjects of where I’m putting my attention? If I’m watching the news, and my assumption is that we’re all screwed. You know, we’re probably in trouble. If I know that something is going on, that’s on a higher level that there’s only love therefore, these scary things we see on the TV, for example, somehow have to be part of the unfolding of the conscious loving universe. That’s not always easy to, to remember. But yeah, once we remember that, yeah,

Connie  31:33

For me, my core assumption of my knowing is, there is only the coming of peace on earth. Everything serves it ever has ever will. That’s all there is. So that’s my reality. So I asked, How does this serve the coming of peace? Honor? The answers you get depend on the questions you ask. So and those questions based on your assumptions, okay. So I get radically different answers from people who think we’re going to hell in a handbasket. And it’s all horrible and humanity’s digressing, etc, I get totally different answers.

Dennis  32:16

Exactly. And I’m, it feels to me, and we’ve talked about this with some of the other scientists and psychologist and anthropologists that we’ve talked to on program about it feels to me, as if there is an a shift in consciousness in the same way that must have happened when when we went from the chimpanzee into the hominid. There, it feels like that we’re making a shift that there that there isn’t a shift in consciousness that is happening, something that there’s an impelling, an evolutionary, an evolutionary imperative that is happening right now. It feels like it’s something feels different.

Andrew  33:01

So what’s different is we are conscious for the first time that we know of Barbara Marx Hubbard and her idea of conscious evolution, we are now aware that we are an evolving species, we ain’t done yet. We still got work to do. When I was swinging through the trees, and I flew down and jumped into my Ferrari and raced off across the prairie. I was not as conscious as I am. Now, I did know that that was a quantum leap in behavior. Yes, I shorten history a bit between everybody that’s an assumption were descended from the apes.

Dennis  33:35

That’s part of that part of the assumption about how, because I assume that there is something other than the present moment. There isn’t. Right? That’s an that again, that’s an assumption.

Connie  33:50

That’s something. One of the assumptions that sets our assumption number seven, number seven. And that’s there is only now this precious present moment, there is only now there’s precious present moments, so pay attention. So that’s the gateway to the trust frequency. And that’s why we’re losing our memory. Okay, because if we can’t remember what we’re supposed to do tomorrow, and we can’t remember what we did yesterday, where are we? Also. So I saw this long ago, because I asked, okay, how is this going to happen? in a loving way, this shift in consciousness, which is a given for us? And my daughter was sitting at the kitchen counter, and I had asked us to the universe, right, my daughter’s sitting at the kitchen counter. This was 30 years ago. And she said, Mom, what would happen if everyone got amnesia? I’m like, Alley. That’s it. That’s how it’s going to happen. Okay, and then I started watching people having senior moments. etc, you know, and I’m like EA, and then the men and black came, you know, where they just went in zap, zap memories. And then a little girl came over to play with my other daughter one day. And she said, constant, you know what happened, I was right in the middle of a fight with my mother. And I forgot what I was mad about. And that told me that it had nothing to do with age. Okay, this is how I, this is how I get my information about the nature of the universe, okay. And when I get it like that, I know, it’s from the Divine, I resonate to it, I put it in my worldview. And that’s very, totally real. For me

Dennis  35:37

The present moment, the more that I that I, I get to it, I know that when I’m sitting in meditation, and I really try to experience the present moment, and just that act of attempting to do, it shows me how much I’m away from the present moment, during the rest of my other activities. And so it’s an extraordinary work to do that, to be able to go into the practice of that.

Connie  36:02

But it’s helping because we’re losing our memory, right?

Dennis  36:06

Think of the memories as as, as a 55 gallon drum, that the you know, it’s like it gets filled up at the top, and then everything else just spills over. spills over on the side. I got a question now. Yeah.

Clay  36:22

My perception is that you’re going to have to have the majority of the world thinking this way for change to happen. And how the monk, tell me about that,

Connie  36:38

You know, about the 100th. Monkey, vaguely? Well, then when the when the consciousness reaches a certain level, the whole thing shifts, when the 100th Monkey ships, the whole monkey Kingdom shifts.

Clay  36:54

So are you saying that it doesn’t take the majority of the world to get to this consciousness level for change to happen, it can happen with a much smaller population.

Andrew  37:05

This is a subject that has actually been studied. And the idea seems to be emerging that it’s going to take about, it’s gonna take a bunch of pain, but about 6%.

Clay  37:16

Six!

Andrew  37:18

That was significant number, but not 50%, not 70%, not 100%, a small enough butterfly to have that butterfly effect on the rest of us.

Connie  37:30

But one thing we have to realize, see, with quantum science and the observer effect, we have to realize our responsibility to the collective consciousness, that if we see it, we sense it, it is our responsibility to vibrate at that level, to keep it in mind to the best of our ability, because like you said, Dennis, it’s a process. But what if we realize it’s, it’s a responsibility, we have that we affect the collective consciousness, we are the loving universe, everything we see, we think we feel our emotions, in the same herramienta with unified physics is now proving that, you know, it has to do with the fact that the energy of the universe is in every cell of our body. So we’re feeding every cell, every emotion, every vibration feeds, of creation. And we actually say all of creation is awaiting love in the human heart, awaiting the opening of the human heart, that our work is actually transmuting fear separation and scarcity, but of creation.

Dennis  38:42

That feels so good, because it feels so hopeful. Because it gives it also gives me my work to do. Because I get to be totally responsible, I get to contribute to the collective conscience, I got to raise my raise my awareness, raise my frequency in that so that I can help I mean, we I I’m very metaphorical. I’ll take a good metaphor and ride it until it’s in the ground and keep going with it. So So I think of our I think of myself as as getting an opportunity to be able to, to contribute into this into this raising of awareness that’s happening all over the world like the the internet is an artificial nodal net, that that connects the consciousnesses of people that is actually helping to be able to very quickly like someone, someone tomorrow as soon as clay gets this edited, can be in Mozambique, and can listen to this conversation. How long would that have taken to happen? 20 or 30 years ago?

Connie  40:00

Yeah, absolutely. So let’s inherent in what you were saying, Dennis, is that, because I think we agreed early on that, there’s only one thing we call it the universe, it’s the only thing there is, is nothing else that conscious loving, and you can describe it, you can use the descriptors and so on. But tell us this unique verse that that which is, and there is nothing else you can’t leave, you can’t escape. And we’re all deeply, profoundly entangled and interconnected part of that, therefore, as you, Dennis, raise your vibratory frequency, guess what you’re doing to the universe. You’re raising vibratory frequency of the entire universe and influencing every century of being an every rock. in that universe. It’s amazing. I want to add to that first verse say, Amen.

Clay  40:58

Dennis, remember, something that Rick tarnis shared with us. And it was from Plotinus. And it’s so beautiful, and it speaks, I think it speaks directly to what you’re talking about. And it says, The stars are like letters that describe themselves at every moment in the sky. Everything in the world is for signs. All events are coordinated. All things depend on each other. Everything breeze together.

Andrew  41:27

A beautiful video, that actually brings us into our next assumption that’s 2000 years ago, and yeah, there’s a six assumption which was written by Plotinus. He was he, there you go. we ever get a check.

Connie  41:43

Circumstance guides us on our journey to wholeness. circumstance loves us more than we do.

Andrew  41:53

So a lot of people think they are victims of circumstance, we say okay, what we’re doing here is we’re taking the opposite was the opposite of a victim of beneficiary. We are beneficiaries of circumstance. It’s every time I get smacked upside the head with a two by four, when I think I’m going from A to B, and something comes out of left field is that no, you’re not, you’re going over there. Again, I have to learn to be grateful to know that I’m not a victim, that I’m a beneficiary. And thank you for redirecting me.

Andrew  42:22

So we didn’t look for the opposite of the prevailing paradigm. But it’s a good tool for people to say, Okay, what do I think? Let me try flipping it to the opposite. We actually just came away, we started from the other end, we came up with this concept for the 10 assumptions and then said, okay, so what? Current What is this what people believe right now? No. So what do you believe, and we made a list of those 10.

Connie  42:46

A circumstance loves us more than we do, because we’re in this little box of this paradigm that says, we’re separate that we’re not okay, that doesn’t matter, nothing matters. And here, we have this loving universe, taking us on this journey that we agreed to go on, and we asked it to take us on. And we discover that every circumstance actually happens for us, not to us, and is taking us places we wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.

Andrew  43:18

No suspect you know that right? So everything happens for us, not to us. If something’s happening to me this that victim thought is in there, isn’t it? That if it’s happening for me, no matter how terrible it may appear on a surface, if everything is happening for me, and I can truly trust that. Wow, that’s so liberating.

Clay  43:42

Yeah. And so there’s two more assumptions. Is that correct? Yes, there are. Nice assumption, the ninth assumption, which is that humanity is on an evolutionary upward spiral.

Connie  43:58

Okay. Because if we assume that we see that then and then the answers, all the answers are different from overhead and downhill, we’ve gone the wrong way. All that. So that’s a really important one that were leading x, x or x or blade and X inexorably to peace on earth and heaven on earth.

Andrew  44:23

And if that’s what you remember, what an assumption is, it’s a belief. It’s something we believe to be true without questions. You do not question on assumption. So if you were on this upward spiral at times, it’s Rocky, but on the whole, we are unfolding, they’re blossoming, we’re growing as a species.

Clay  44:45

Well, okay, so I want to I want to peel the onion on that a little bit, because I spent most of my life thinking that times linear. That you know, we’re going in this Straight line out there. When you talked about we’re spiraling. Hmm. Then that gives us some the, I’m assuming then that time is cyclical,which is a big that’s a big thing for someone to pick up if they’ve been on the linear path their whole life. But the Vedic texts talk about it the precession of the equinoxes, it all the ancient traditions have it, that it’s time to cyclical, exactly.

Andrew  45:32

So it moves forward. It’s teleological in the sense that it’s going somewhere. Think about, think about our sun and our solar system. It’s going somewhere, it’s traveling through the universe at very high speed. And it’s everything’s revolving around everything else. So the whole thing’s convoluted spiral that’s evolving, because it’s different in different states and different times.

Clay  45:57

Right.

Andrew  45:59

And we’re coming around, but we’re coming around at a higher place. History’s repeating itself, but it’s it’s coming around at a higher level.

Clay  46:09

That’s kind of the how spiral dynamics talks about a g7. I think, yeah, I don’t know much about that. It’s very important thinking. But yeah, it’s, it agrees with what you’re what you’re saying. Interesting. Okay. Well, okay, so number 10. What’s number 10?

Connie  46:28

Number 10 Is the trust frequency is available to anyone, anytime, anywhere, and that it is a real place. Interest frequency is real. In other words, this is not a fantasy. This is not just a made up thing. There’s a vibratory state of consciousness, that’s real. And we can go there anytime just by remembering that it’s real. And what can get us there, our vibratory level our seven days, because it’s a conscious, loving universe.

Clay  47:03

And I want to underscore that when you’re talking about vibrational, you’re not talking metaphor. You’re talking physics. It’s physics. It’s physics. It’s vibration. We touched on that a week or two ago with the research director for Heart Math Institute. Yes. Okay. And in what he’s saying supports what you’re saying, We’re having so many people from the various vantage points pointing to this massive change. That’s, that’s happening. You know, it’s not something out there that’s happening. We’re in the midst of all this. And whether it’s psychological, physiological, vibrational, everybody’s saying it differently, but they’re saying the same thing. That we’re that we’re evolving to a higher level with that supports with

Connie  47:55

a higher frequency and says that there’s more information in a higher frequency. So his, his science is proving what we’re bringing through indigenous cosmology and quantum science synthesis. He’s, he’s bringing through this unified physics. And he said, when we tune our antenna, to a higher frequency, there’s more information. What we say is the laws are expanded. And there’s more beauty balanced joy and abundance than we can fathom. Because remember Jesus with the loaves and the fishes and the miracles, okay, the loaves and fishes, the limited abundance that lives there, and John Lennon’s Imagine, he’s telling us how we get there, and what it looks like, no possessions, the native people, you don’t own anything. You don’t own the land you don’t own. I don’t own this necklace. You know, if somebody likes my necklace, I realize it’s their turn, and I give it to them in the native way. So it’s a whole different reality in this higher frequency. And that’s, it’s a whole new ballgame.

Clay  49:04

So would it be true?

Andrew  49:07

Yes

Dennis  49:13

I love both of your comedy timings in your in your senses of humor, so It’s so delightful. Go clay. Alright. So would it be true that if we look at these

Clay  49:29

10 assumptions, that’s a way to peel back the layers so that I can begin to know who I really am. Why I’m really here and then move forward with that, you know, alignment. You know, the talk about Providence once one’s committed, once one’s aligned. And I’ve, I’ve personally experienced that. And you’re right, there’s no straight lines to anything. But boy, I tell you, when I aligned with my true purpose, the whole universe aligned with me. And guidance. That’s, yeah, yeah. And so that’s what I’m seeing your 10 assumptions are that that’s helps peel back helps reframe everything that allows that truth to come through.

Andrew  50:24

And if you’re like, I’d like to say something about human beings and assumptions, the vast majority of us, I would say, all of us have assumptions, I’m sitting on a chair, I have to assume this chair will support my wage, people say Don’t make assumptions, makes an ass out of you and me right is, you know, we all make assumptions there, our understanding of the nature of things, the nature of the universe. But our assumptions came to us, in our pre conscious years before the age of seven, before we got those cheese before that analytical left brain really kicked in. So I was told, at the age of three, that I’m a little shit, just to take one of those things as an example. And I was also told, when I was five, that does see those people down there, once of the black skins, they’re dangerous. And oh, by the way, you know, is not enough. And we’re never going to have enough food, and we’re never going to have enough money. And we can never afford another house or any, on and on. All of that stuff comes to us as little children, from our parents, from our teachers, from our buddies, from our contractors, then the culture, cultural system, they 10 baked in cultural assumptions. And if we could be pygmy sitting in the African jungle, and there would be some equivalent of that I would have a different outward form. But I think every culture, sort of impregnates the next generation with these fundamental beliefs. That is the worldview of that culture. And who ever stops to think, and says, Wait a minute, where did I get that from? Do I really believe that? And can I rethink that it? Can I? Is it possible that I can actually bring them to the surface? Look at them say hell, no, I’m not. I don’t believe that. Where’d you get it from? Oh, my dad told me that. Uh, huh. Or my grandfather, on and on. So that’s what this work is about the trust frequency work is about examining assumptions. And basically being asked to just try on us an alternative set. And if it doesn’t fit, make up sometimes you’re on.

Connie  52:35

So many people say, this book, these assumptions articulate something I’ve always known, but never had the words or, huh, okay, because it is our true nature. We would go to say, perhaps it’s the true nature of the universe. But we’re not going to say that that’s dogma, one has to decide for oneself, one’s assumptions are and what’s relevant for one. But the one important thing is to understand is no shame, no blame for having come in, on this journey. Okay, so one’s not less than because one came in with self doubt and self hatred and brought all this challenge and abuse and whatever into our lives. No, is no is the job job we came here to do. So and the universe has blessed us with it, so that we can bring our true gifts, which is us. The universe wants us all of us. Wow. I’m

Clay  53:39

My head spinning. And when what came to mind a few moments ago, as you were talking, was this idea of fear. And the question. I’ve never thought about it. But is fear part of our DNA? Or is fear learned?

Connie  54:01

False Evidence Appearing Real fear of AR? Well, that’s one way.

Andrew  54:08

But that I think, I think your point is, is it baked in? Is it in our DNA? And I would say the answer to that is yes, in that we, as we said earlier on, all of my predecessors are in static folders. So everything they believed and experienced and understood from those experiences that were dangerous or scary or unpleasant, whatever they were the things those things which we would fear as opposed to loving, you know, I don’t welcome pain or disease. But those things that we might be afraid of. I think we it’s twofold. One is we were taught very intentionally to fear certain things as children, like, I grew up in Africa, that snake, if it bites you, you’re gone. Yes, survival. So there are certain survival things that are practical, sensible things Don’t just sit down and meditate in the middle of the freeway. Not a good idea. Okay, so, bingo.

Clay  55:08

For me, I’m thinking that, yes, fear is part of my DNA. And when I’m born, it only manifests really when it’s reinforced. I’m, you know, like, I mean, I don’t know if I’m saying it right, what I’m trying to do is make a correlation between is fear as part of our DNA. Well, James Doty, and his work with on compassion, says that compassion is part of our DNA.

Andrew  55:48

And it’s a rush. And trust is, and we know that if there’s nothing in the universe, but love, and love is obviously part of our DNA, because DNA is actually made of love. But it’s that freedom that we somehow have been given, if we put it that way. That’s our that’s how I was given this assumption, I was given free will, I was given the freedom to believe anything I choose. And actually the job of figuring it out. And I have installed stuff, but my culture. And as I grew up, a lot of us as teenagers, we rebelled, only we got shut up that I’m not gonna do that. You know, so there’s all of that we all come from a certain era, we’re in the 60s where our whole generation rose up and basically rejected some of the fundamental assumptions of the collective culture.

Andrew  56:42

So free will, which is our fifth assumption is an absolute law of the universe.

Connie  56:47

And that’s constant no such thing as no free will we, we have the freedom to choose our frequency.

Clay  56:57

That’s a big responsibility.

Connie  56:59

Right there see, freedom to choose our frequency? We can, we can say no, I don’t believe in all that, that’s fine. We have the freedom to choose our assumptions to choose where we put our attention to choose all this stuff.

Dennis  57:13

If that were not true, Connie, then when someone cuts me off on the freeway on a Thursday, I would react exactly the same way as I do on a Friday because on a Thursday, I’m all mad and pissed off and angry at that person. On a Friday, they do exactly the same thing. And I’m, oh, they’re having a hard time. And let me get him. They’re the exact same thing happen. But I’m the one.

Andrew  57:37

See the choice? See, life is just an endless sequence of choices have conscious intentions.

Connie  57:46

And I say to people, you know, people say, Oh, you’re trying to change me? No, I’m not trying to. I’m, I’m telling you a set of assumptions. I don’t care what you do with them. That’s your choice. You complain. We’re offering this set of assumptions and this book and our who we are, and our worldview, but I don’t care what you think, or what you do. That’s your business. It’s totally free will.

Dennis  58:15

What feels so good about this is that this is the the definition of living at the moment when we say it’s a program of attraction, and not promotion, you know, that this is what you it’s what you’re offering me, you’re offering me an opportunity to be able to say, search inside myself. Look into who I am. And how’s that working for you, Dennis?

Andrew  58:47

And a child, isn’t it?

Connie  58:51

When you rather be beloved, from a victim, when there

Dennis  58:54

There you go. Yeah, I know that I know. Because I look into my own resentments toward myself and I wonder, well, I must be getting something from that. What am I getting from holding that against myself, I’m I must be I must be finding something. Either some need to stay small or something that I’m doing that I’m holding against myself, to be able to do that

Clay  59:20

The men’s work that I’ve done, that I can’t see the perfect person that I am, that the universe has has, you know, has given me and that’s where the men who surround me remind me who I am. And, and I bring that up because we’re going to get together again. And we’re going to talk about men’s work. And so I just wanted to put that in there but what you were saying really brought that out in my mind.

Dennis  59:56

I’m so I’m so happy that we get a chance to have another conversation with you both on the nominee on this subject. And because I have a, my sense is is that this is it’s going to be iterative. And that we are, we’re actually going to be the using many of the principles that you’re talking all of the principles that you’re talking about in our next discussion. But it’ll just have a different cosmetic face, but it’ll be the same essence of what we’re talking about, or a different application to a different application of that. Thank you. Thanks,

Andrew  1:00:30

I wanted not to lose one thing from what Yeah, please. You talks about your resentment towards yourself. So this is from Jay, foundational, we have these beliefs about ourselves that were baked in when we were little, little boys, and our self esteem, how love for ourselves is the hardest thing. It’s kind of easy to love. It’s kind of easy for me to love this girl. I mean, who wouldn’t?

Dennis  1:00:54

Who wouldn’t? God.

Andrew  1:00:57

And like, my little grandchildren, you know, I mean, that’s relatively easy, but look in the mirror and face myself. Oh, man. So one of the most challenging things is actually our self respect, self esteem, ourselves, love. And trusting this, this, these, these 10 assumptions actually help a whole lot. They’re each fragments of a mirror that adds up to a very beautiful reflection of ourselves as magnificent, as beautiful as useful. As he over the purpose, all of those things that really helped me personally, my practicing for decades was to to learn that I was lovable. I actually didn’t believe I was lovable. And man, that was hard. And I did a lot of Ben’s work myself place. And we’ll talk about that,

Connie  1:01:48

Again, I just want to say backlog in the conversation. The idea that a reaction and a behavior has to do with core issues. Somebody brought that up to us. Decades ago, when we had a thing right before the this person came to visit us. came to see us. And she said, Whoa, that sounds like a core issue situation. And that just took it right there. Right to what’s going on. I mean, that observation of hers changed our lives. Right there. Core

Andrew  1:02:27

When his inexplicable behaviors emerge.

Dennis  1:02:31

Yeah. Thank you. Pray. Thank you for inviting me on this journey. And thank you for inviting me to this conversation. To enter Connie, y’all. Thank you so much for for this time. And thank you for for knowing that we’re going to be having another conversation with you and I knowing that it’s already scheduled makes me very happy and thank you both. Clay. Thank you so much. And thank you everyone who is listening out there. And please join us again for in search of the new compassionate male.

Andrew  1:03:07

And that has been an honor. Thank you.

Connie  1:03:09

Thank you for having us.

Clay  1:03:11

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