Julien Oomen is a Dutch/French, Amsterdam-based musician who draws inspiration from spiritual ceremonies and personal stories with their trapdoor to the universal. Julien is currently working on a long cherished project: For the first time he will be releasing an album with songs in the French language only. The album is a collaboration with his mother Marinette Oomen-Myin, who wrote the lyrics. Most of the songs have a double perspective throughout time, as Julien asked his mother to write new extra parts to poems she wrote when she was 20-22 years old. The album thus encompasses a time span of more than half a century.
It takes a certain insight and experience when capturing the true essence of one’s life for your family, or telling your story to a broader audience, or creating a personal video resume.
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Dennis uses insight, experience, and expertise to elicit profound and powerful stories from individuals. Dennis paints a portrait of the authentic person he is interviewing with his passion. Having a video interview of a loved one is a timeless treasure.
Dennis has interviewed the greats and the unassuming.
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Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay boykin.com for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate man. A few days ago, I had the opportunity to have a one on one conversation with our dear friend Dennis Slattery. You may recall Dennis is Professor Emeritus at Pacifica Graduate Institute, this podcast. This episode, we talked about mandalas. We talked about Carl Jung, we talked about Carl Jung’s art, the artwork that Dennis is doing, that’s complementary to Carl Jung’s art in his mandalas. And we explored how my model is fit into that picture. So let’s join that conversation in progress. Well, you know, we’ve been talking, you’ve been watching my mindless stuff, and you’ve been painting, what, 910 years?
Dennis Slattery 01:29
Or 11? Now, here’s, yeah, about 11 years.
Clay Boykin 01:33
And there’s some parallels that I wanted to explore.
Dennis Slattery 01:39
Clay Boykin 01:41
you know, reading Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell, I’m getting, they’ll talk about, you know, Mondelez, they talk about quaternity. And the use of quaternity. The for you know, whether it’s north south east, west or earth, wind, fire and water, you know, but yeah, that four or quaternity is kind of the basic building block, if you will. And, and yet in a lot of Young’s modulo work, I don’t see quaternity. Express,
Dennis Slattery 02:26
like the one that I painted, that I think you have, it’s not even a circle, it’s like a, it’s like an egg shape. My version on the left and Young’s on the right. And he calls it an envelope. So I think I think there’s some latitude, if it I think the image is after any image of a meadow, capturing some imagination of wholeness in something’s complete. So I don’t I encourage you not to worry about having it. Literally, always in fourths, but I mean, a circle itself late is a mandolin. And you could fill it in and say, Well, this is part of my, my image of my own individuation pilgrimage here. But yeah, and I just was so attracted by this one. You and with my art teachers help, I knew I could do it. I was trying in this period, in which I did. Maybe seven, from the Red Book. And I had already or was in process of offering to read book. gatherings at true churches, New Mexico. I was just absorbed. I mean, the Red Book was like a vortex that pulled me really deeply into it. And I thought I wonder if I can touch even with a feather Young’s creative process by painting what he painted. So that was what was behind it. And you know, everything that I painted of his put me in such a calm, place, feeling centered, even while the challenges of each one would have been insurmountable had I not have this wonderful Linda Calvert Jacobson as my art teacher and every I remember, in one of these, we were working on it. And she just stepped back and said, Do you realize how complex this man’s imagination is? And I said, Well, I know that from his writing, but I’m listening to you closely about his imagery. And she said, these are, these are unbelievably sophisticated works of art. And she has the ability to see the layers. So we were the ones that I really wrestled with, we, you know, you always start in the back, and you start from the top down, and then you layer, you see what is on one layer, and then you layer other other parts of images, and layer it again. And you may have four or more layers. And that’s how it accumulates the texture that it has. And I wasn’t worried about xeroxing yo, in my painting. And in some of them. That complexity was such that I said to them that I’m going to skip the I’m going to skip that. I’m going to fill it in with a solid color. It’s it’s too much Young’s particular devotion to detail in in his paintings, and the Red Book is just phenomenal. The patience. And of course, he took art classes. Some were under the impression that he just kind of put it together. No, he had, I don’t know how many classes he took, but he had guidance. But he also had the images. And he just needed some technical assistance to get them down as he was imagining them. So the Red Book, chains union
Dennis Slattery 07:03
exploration to an uncanny degree, and then about, it’s been a few years now the six Black Books that he wrote in that then he compiled in the Red Book. And I’ve been tempted to buy the six or maybe $120. And I’m thinking, will I really read them? I think I’d rather go back and reread the Red Book, then start on the black book. But people that have read the black book, say they’re they’re phenomenal. It’s like his thinking in a germinal for them that gains the maturity in the Red Book.
Clay Boykin 07:47
Let me ask you a question. In these two inches side by side, what is on the right is from the is the Red Book. Exactly. Yes. And then on the left is your framed. It’s your study of Young’s. Yes. Mondala.
Dennis Slattery 08:11
Clay Boykin 08:12
I want to I’m trying to get to a place. What was it that you said that when you were painting it that you had this sense of peace?
Dennis Slattery 08:27
Well, I find that often in my painting, but it was particularly rich with you, because other painters works that I’ve painted. I didn’t know much about them. I wasn’t even sure what, what if anything, they wrote. But I’ve been reading yoga since 1968 1969. And often without comprehension, but I just pushed through. And now and then as the years went on, he got a sense of the patterns of his psyche, how he works, how analogy works. So I’ve never painted any painters work. From who, for whom I’ve read this much that he wrote, and I think that put me in a different constellation clay because I had the literary background. And I was able to think about mandalas as I painted them, and I read the Red Book twice, and then the readers edition once, I think, and of course, the readers edition. Isn’t the size of a Volkswagen, like the Red Book, the full one. But there’s no that’s it. And it’s beautifully done. No images.
Clay Boykin 09:53
Yeah, no color. They’re just a few images in the back and yes, black and white. Yes, that’s right. But no, it doesn’t.
Dennis Slattery 10:05
You have that one that you just looked at, which is his Mandela. That one? I think that was his first. I think you’re right. And I just want to tell you the story about that, because in one of the trips that Pacifica put together, to visit Young’s home, and I remember sitting next to Rick tarnis, we were in separate chairs, and both of us, we’re holding one side of that first medal and the original. And Yun said something like, this is my first attempt at a mandolin. I don’t know what it means.
Clay Boykin 10:52
You know, I just came across something that was speaking about young that he had painted these models as he went through this phase. But it wasn’t until years later, that he came back and put the pieces together of oh, that’s what I was doing back then.
Dennis Slattery 11:14
You know, and that great? Well, and it
Clay Boykin 11:17
stunned me, because you and I’ve talked before, you know, most of my life, I’ve been drawing things, circles and quadrants and even doing it in business. Yes, just the quadrants, you know, an amount can be a circle and a square, just a square, you know, some combination of those. Yes. And I was doing this instinctively for business purposes, to take a whole topic and then break it out, and then put it all into context. Yes. When I first read Joseph Campbell’s talking about a model of being, you know, the ability to put all the scattered aspects of one’s life into context for the universe, yes, order with the universe. In this form. I thought, Oh, my God, all these years, I’ve been drawing mandalas. I didn’t know that’s what it was.
Dennis Slattery 12:13
And there, they were, right out of your unconscious
Clay Boykin 12:17
out of my unconscious instinctively. And you talk about the piece, every time that I would get to this place where all these different pieces fit into context, that last piece would go in there. And this audible, the size, oh, at this moment in time, everything that’s on my mind in the universe is in order.
Dennis Slattery 12:43
For this small, I’m completely with you. And you remind me, and I’m going to send this to you. It’s five pages. It’s Toni Morrison, speaking about her creative process, and it’s entitled memory creation, writing. And the reason I’m going to send it to you, I think you’ll enjoy the whole thing. But what she says about how memory works through bits and pieces. And bits and pieces start to accumulate into parts. And parts start to accumulate into something whole. And she says it, this won’t spoil it, that when she was researching one of her works. She knew she had to stop reading about this historical incident. Because if she didn’t, you’d never be able to write about it. In other words, you can load bits and pieces up to the point and I’ve had dissertation students have this happen to them more than one. They research to the point that they fall into paralysis, intimidation, I’m so loaded with other people’s ideas. I can’t find any of my own anymore. And so I’ve always wanted to write a piece in academia, about the dangers of over researching, which is a kind of overreaching of your topic that winds up creating writer’s block writer’s paralysis, frustration. So there’s a real lesson here about leaving gaps. I will places to breathe
Clay Boykin 14:45
Oh, yeah. I so appreciate what you’re saying. And I have to confess I’m kind of going through a little bit of that paralysis right now. I mean, you know, this past year or so every time I turn around, there’s another books.
Dennis Slattery 15:02
You told those people to stop doing that? Guilty.
Clay Boykin 15:08
Yeah, guilty. I tell you what, every book that you’ve that you’ve given me or pointed me to, then fascinating and good. With time I’ll be able to really sink deeply into, but I wanted to go go to a point that I knew about Carl Jung. I knew everybody would say well Oh, study his mindless and consciously I say, Yeah, I want to do that. But subconsciously or inside me. I said, No, I don’t want to go learn about his stuff. I don’t want to be on his path. I don’t want to go replicating it. I need to go discover this myself. I’ve gotten to this place. I’ve got to go further. Yep. And really understand what it is that I’ve got. Yes. And tell you it was in your book, that quote that I just sent to you. The other day?
Dennis Slattery 16:12
That was obscure order, I think. Yes. Because I went back to it. ftu. Senate.
Clay Boykin 16:20
Yeah, it was in at the very beginning of chapter two. And I’m going to paraphrase,
Dennis Slattery 16:32
Yeah, correct. No. I’m just gonna listen. In essence, what
Clay Boykin 16:37
you were telling me was are saying and there was Carl Jung didn’t write into his work for it to be the stagnant Opus, that was just fixed. He wrote into what he did such that it can be handed off and then further developed. That’s it. That’s right. And so for us to rehash just this what you know, Karlstrom Ian’s work rehash it and not extended. is is uh, it’s falling short of what his desires were. Exactly right. And so what that paragraph did right there for me, Dennis was, it said it was okay for me not to study him until I knew more about myself. And now it’s a path that I can now i Okay, now, I’ve gotten enough. The essence of what I’m doing in the bigger, you know, like Howard Tice said to me, says clay your mandala? What you’re drawing there. You don’t know what you’re doing. Yeah. Well, thanks a lot. No, I would say bravo. What you’re doing is bigger than what you really understand. Yeah. Right. And pieces of it had gotten to a place where Okay, now I can bridge to young insight. Okay, now, what was he doing? And every step along the way so far, this unfolding for him? It’s been, what’s been happening for me is, it’s it’s fascinating. It’s humbling. It’s sobering. Your it was that paragraph in your book? That that really helped me turn the corner on that. That’s great. I’m so happy to hear that. Yeah. And that’s the right approach. Because, you know,
Dennis Slattery 18:40
God bless scholars struggling to get a dissertation done. And, and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve written in the margins of a student’s work, let’s say, a final paper on Moby Dick. And they’ve gone to Ed injures volume, the American Nicaea and on Moby Dick, and they start quoting, Edgar, and then they quote him again. And I draw a line I say, Stop. I don’t have a clue what you think. So stop folding him. And let me hear from you. And part of it’s part of its intimidation part of it. So I don’t I I don’t have anything to say about this. And a part of it’s a feeling of inadequacy, but I would tell them, Look, you know, you’ve come this far, you’ve earned the authority to say what you believe, and if it’s wrong, let’s not worry about that right now. But they, they want to go to the nest. And I’m trying to kick them out of the nest so they can try to fly a little But on their own, they may, they may crash land, but they’ll get up. Wow. You know, it’s anyhow, I share that with you because I saw that over 3025 years of working with dissertation students.
Clay Boykin 20:16
Well, I get snagged that way. It’s like, Oh, my God, what he said was so perfect. How can I say it better? Yeah. But you took it to another step. It’s not how do you say it better? But what thought does that bring in your mind? That’s it? Where does your mind go? When you read this? Not Have you restate it? No, bingo. Don’t really state but but where does it take you?
Dennis Slattery 20:45
Yeah. Okay. Because then you’re actively engaged in the process. The other way, it’s, it’s data processing. Jung said it now push the data along. So one of the things I’ll say about dissertation students, who also showed her Oh, my gosh, remarkable advances forward, they really came into their own. And for many, I would say, and other colleagues of mine would say, you know, you really have tapped the voice of your own authority. I never heard this in your papers. But over this epic enterprise of the dissertation, you’ve done it. So one of the hang ups, or question areas that was often asked about is, what should I say in the conclusion? Should I summarize what I’ve said in 230 pages? And my response was no, because I’ve already read it. So I don’t want to reread it in microform. I see just answered answer this question. You come to the last chapter. Boom. Next thing is conclusion. Answer this question. So what? So what you’ve written to it and 30 pages? So what why should I care? I love that. Whoa. And I said, and keep your keep your conclusion to five pages? And answer the question, so what? Wow, once it was framed that way, then they say, well, here’s some implications of this theory, or this work, or whatever it was. And I could see this being used in business or I could see this being used in undergraduate classroom, whatever. But they needed to be given permission to say what they’ve been thinking about. And step out of the paralysis of this academic. This academic mindset, that doesn’t allow them sometimes to feel like they can be the human being they are. Well, you know, it’s a trap.
Clay Boykin 23:07
What you’re saying is so empowering. It’s so empowering. You know, two things, one. Take his work or any work in them go to the next place. Where does it take you? Yes. And then after you’ve gone there, so what? Yes. And it’s not so what in a sarcastic fashion at all? No, it’s so well. So what’s next? So what’s next? You know? And then you Yeah, I want to go back. I want to come back to this to your study of, of, of Young’s modulus. What was was the piece that you were feeling? Whereas was it like, Okay, this side represents something in his mandala, and this side represents something? No, I’m seeing that. I’m seeing some beautiful art. And I’m seeing the quaternity the the four, yeah. But I see no definitions of anything or, or symbols that I can relate to.
Dennis Slattery 24:25
Yeah, and in painting him his work. I cried to enter what the Greeks called My nesis. In other words, Carl, you’ve you’ve you’ve crafted this beautiful Mendola that I want to enter into, physically and embodied by painting it or my version of it. And it’s not going to be a Xerox some of them are closer than others. But I want to feel into what you felt, if it’s even possible. This is, but this is my act of imagination, taking the painting. I want to see if I can feel what you felt when you created it. And, you know, did I ever hit the mark? It doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t matter. That was the blueprint. You hit your mark. I hit my mark. Yeah. So Carl, you gave me the map. But I took I went into the territory, that the map, which is your painting laid out, but my experience is not going to be yours. Although I sense if the unconscious is also engaged, which it was in every one of his paintings, which is in everything that I’ve ever written, my unconscious is always there. But I don’t want to draw a line and say, this is conscious, this is unconscious, I just want to have the whole experience. So when I looked at it like that, that I’m creating an imitation as he was, you know, his paintings are imitations of his own personal myth, collective myth, historical myth. And it’s okay, if I tap that in the tiniest way. And I’ll be happy with whatever happens, even if nothing happens, which never occurred? Well, things always happen.
Clay Boykin 26:47
And I would submit that you’re using the word invitation. What comes to mind is if you’re doing a study of his work, you’re doing this study.
Dennis Slattery 27:00
Clay Boykin 27:01
Not, you’re not there to copy it. No, this isn’t a copy. No, this is a study. It’s what comes in what is translating into you and then flowing out onto that Canvas through the lens that you’re seeing the world? Yes. And so it may execute radically different if you put them side by side as copies. Yes. But no. Yes. Your interpretation. It’s your study. It’s your interpretation of him.
Dennis Slattery 27:35
Exactly. Right. What he was he was giving form to his interior world. I think I was giving something of my form of in the painting, by means of my interior world, mingling with his. Now that was my fantasy. And you know, it’s okay that it’s a fantasy. It has failed. It has value.
Clay Boykin 28:01
Yeah, it. What’s coming up for me is urine motion.
Dennis Slattery 28:09
With motion? Yes.
Clay Boykin 28:10
You’re in motion? Yeah. Emotion motion? Yes. You’re in motion. Rather than being stuck or frozen. This this, he’s helping you propel yourself forward? Yes. If it were any other mandala. Some pick some random person’s beautiful mandala that they’ve drawn. Do you think that you would go to the same place? Not
Dennis Slattery 28:39
interesting question. No, it’s it’s a really good question. I don’t know. But I think there are universal principles that are being expressed aesthetically, emotionally and psychologically, that when you enter them I don’t have to be a Sufi to read Sufi poetry. And I bring that up because I found a hardback volume of Sufi poetry on a shelf this morning, I thought, What did I buy this, I’m going to bring it into my study and read, but I know that I’m going to be able to enter that Sufi imagination being a Western citizen, because the the poetry will tap these universal constructs that you you know, read popularized as the archetypal realm. And this they the archetypes come out of the unconscious. So that’s what we all share. And if I knew I used to read Spanish poetry in Spanish because at one point I hit a pretty good facility with finish. But it’s always interesting to to read poetry or literature in a language other than your own. And I wish I had that facility. Campbell had a gift for as a philologist for learning languages. You know,
Clay Boykin 30:23
it’s interesting point because I think I was in fifth grade. fifth or sixth grade, when I became an altar boy.
Dennis Slattery 30:35
What did you I was too, okay.
Clay Boykin 30:39
And at that time, we were still doing the maths in Latin
Dennis Slattery 30:44
Clay Boykin 30:47
So here I was a fifth or sixth grader. speaking Latin.
Dennis Slattery 30:53
Clay Boykin 30:57
phonetically. I mean, I didn’t know a word I was saying. Yeah. You know, I could go and read the translation. But as I was reading it, I, you know, I didn’t know any other words. But I remember there being a feeling. Yes, sense of flow and depth, even as a little kid like that. Yes. I have to say spiritual now. But back then it was magic.
Dennis Slattery 31:25
It was magic, ya know, and I experienced that too, as an older boy for four years. And I love the fact that I didn’t know what I was saying. Because it allowed I know, looking back and thinking about, I felt I was able to enter the ritual of the mass by reciting, and then the rhythm and the texture and the sound without knowing the meaning. It just, it just, it elevated something in me, and really elevated the mystery of the mass.
Clay Boykin 32:02
Yes, mystery in the mysticism. Yes. So powerful. And it’s hitting me that some of the mystery, you know, when we translated it into English, just using the, the Latin English and the calf, yes. We translated it into English. I remember. Mother, who? A tie in Cecilia, okay. I remember her saying that. She felt like we’ve lost something when we went to English. And I’m thinking, well, but now we can understand what we’re saying. Yeah. She said, No, but we’ve lost something. She’s right. And we’ve lost we’ve we’ve lost the mystery. By Gothic English, we’ve lost in depth of mystery we may be able to intellectually understand. Yes. But if it doesn’t touch the heart the same way.
Dennis Slattery 33:08
No. And the Latin was, was a global, regardless of what language you spoke, in your, in your history in your culture. It was a shared common experience that the mass was inlet. And I can remember the kickbacks, I can’t remember the year that it went to English for us. But I remember the disappointment in so many people, because something of that long heritage of the church was pitched in favor of popular ism, making it more relevant, which was all nonsense, I believe. And the other thing that I think worked on people negatively, was when the priest turn and began to save the mask from the other side of the altar, looking out at us, rather than how we would look at his back for all those years as he ritualized the mass and the sacramental quality of it. He the priest loss, something of that. I don’t know, shamanic presence or, you know, vested presence. And then what flipped millions out was when they started using guitars at mass, and I know people that said, I’m done. I’m done with the church.
Clay Boykin 34:49
You know, it’s interesting, so fascinating. First year, I never thought about the priest turning and facing and where my mind immediately went was when he was when we were all facing behind him and he was he’s facing the altar. It’s almost like he’s kind of leading us there. Yes, exactly. When he turns to us now he’s preaching at us.
Dennis Slattery 35:15
Yes. And it’s, you know, I know we’d be, we’d be buddies. Yeah. Yeah. It popularized it and bled something sacred out of it. At the same time.
Clay Boykin 35:33
Yeah. And comment about the guitar. I can vividly remember because they invited me to come play guitar.
Dennis Slattery 35:43
Clay Boykin 35:47
And so, I remember sitting up there in front, playing an instrumental. And one piece was Simon and Garfunkel and other was rolling stones?
Dennis Slattery 36:04
Oh, wow. Great.
Clay Boykin 36:06
It was a beautiful. Okay. Yeah. But just instrumental, it but I remember sitting there thinking, what am I doing sitting up here playing Rolling Stones? And inside Onkel? Because it sounds pretty. Yeah. In the midst of this mass.
Dennis Slattery 36:27
Yeah. And, you know, the migration from the sacred to the secular happened in those installments. From my perspective, you know, others were happy. Oh, god, get rid of that Latin. I never understood it. I think that was part of the point that you didn’t understand it, which then allowed it to maintain a certain mystery. Yes, about it without alienating us. I mean, I think maybe some took it personally. And said, Well, why can’t we just have it in English? And I think that was answered for them when it went to English. And it was a palpable feeling of something. Now missing.
Clay Boykin 37:14
Yeah. It was we rationalized. Or for rationalizes, right word. We lost something.
Dennis Slattery 37:27
Yeah. In the, in the, in the, in this spirit of modernity is keep it up to date, let the past go all of these psychological principles that we get burned into us. All that was back there. Oh, in the Middle Ages, you know what they thought I mean, so to, to modernize spirituality, in that way. Was to, for me, put the word religion in lowercase r and the uppercase are gone.
Clay Boykin 38:11
You know, that really resonates. And what comes to mind is that it was I think a bit of it was simplification so we can understand. That takes me to something I read this last year sometime. The point was made that simplification is the first step towards ignorance.
Dennis Slattery 38:44
Yeah, that’s good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To simplify. We could also use a less kind phrase. Dumb it down. I was gonna say, Yeah, dumb it down. Yeah. So it’s the, you know, the new maths for dummies in the series. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And somehow that’s a virtue. See, that’s the part that I find most astonishing, that this was all in the service. And, you know, I don’t know numbers. But I wonder if a decreasing parish population brought the church to a place where we’ve got to upgrade and upbeat, this whole experience, or there’s going to be nobody coming massed. Now, I don’t know. But I would want to, it would be interesting to explore the population growth or decrease when all of these were executed. Was it Was it through the Second Vatican Council which was 1960 63. With Pope John officiating? Was it that Vatican Council that brought this on? I am asking this question, because I don’t know the history.
Clay Boykin 40:19
But I think we were moving out of Latin. I would have been 65. Probably 65. For
Dennis Slattery 40:35
Clay Boykin 40:37
So we’re in the right decade.
Dennis Slattery 40:39
It’s Yes, it’s in. Yeah. I think the church was in an upgrade movement at that council. I may Google that second Vatican council, later today, or probably tomorrow morning. And just to serve, when when did the when did the mass shift to the vernacular of whatever people it was being presented to? Yeah, and see something universal. I’m repeating myself, I know. But something universal dropped out. The sacraments themselves are, of course, universally intact. But something in the in the language of the prayers themselves last that universality.
Clay Boykin 41:38
I want to add on to that. Again, I’m reading so many different things. I don’t remember where this came from. You took a new prorate, remember that this movement, let’s call it simplification or moving just to English, losing the the the mystery and losing the mysticism. Some ways turn the west towards the east. And into the mid to the mystical in the symbolism and everything that we would find in the Eastern traditions. Yes, because we couldn’t understand it like this the symbols or even though the letters. Yes. The different you know. We entered then into this, this this realm of not knowing but feeling it, it took us back into this place. Yes, that that’s part of the popular because for me, personally, I’m seeking I’m seeking I’m seeking. And once I get it figured out, I want to go the next place. I want to stay in this space of not knowing but discovering.
Dennis Slattery 42:54
Yes. Nice. Now, that’s a great way to say it. Yeah. Instead of getting comfortable in these tribal pockets that we’re so locked into today, and we see how divisive and destructive that is turf protecting which which is the perfect breeding ground for ideologies, and then conversation ceases. Right? And then and then it just ferments and becomes more tankless and people become more cantankerous towards one another. It’s really a vicious plotline
Clay Boykin 43:38
in your workshop that we did there in Santa Fe. Yeah. Wonderful, great writing experience writing our own myth, what a great circle of people we had.
Dennis Slattery 43:50
Oh, that was one of a kind. It was one of the kind.
Clay Boykin 43:56
And I remember towards the end, somebody was talking about we are we were talking about polarization. Or the hard left the hard, right. And somebody said, Yeah, but we’re in those positions in what we’re not realizing is that we’re illuminating the other. We’re, it’s almost like I’m shining. We’re shining a light on one another. Yeah. I try to remember the essence of the point that was being made not to go back to my notes.
Dennis Slattery 44:34
Yeah, I mean, okay, I’m gonna I’m gonna get that some more. Yeah, I thought,
Clay Boykin 44:40
here’s something I want to I’m gonna go. I’m gonna go back to your modular painting. Do you find yourself when you begin to paint feeling sleepy Just how do I know this? When I got this book in my hand, just for example, okay. Yeah, I sat with it. And it was almost like putting it in my lap. There was a sigh. Like, okay, I found it. i Okay, I know this is, you know, this isn’t somebody talking about somebody talking about somebody? No, this is the satellites. Yeah, I found the original text, or the original document. Yes. And as soon as I begin to read, it’s like I fall asleep. Oh, okay. And it’s different than falling asleep, because you’re tired of reading? It’s, there’s something maybe there’s a release of us have a level of tension. Right? Not knowing now I know. There’s that Yes. You know, and, and now we want to savor it. You know, and I find myself. Even in your books, I find myself going back and reading a chapter over and over and over again. Because it feels good. There’s something that’s being communicated, in essence, it’s beyond intellectual.
Dennis Slattery 46:25
It’s beyond the intellectual, it’s deeper. It’s deeper. And each time I know this happens to you, it happens to me that, you know, I never got tired of teaching the Odyssey, Moby Dick. And beloved, I did that for 2020 years. And people would say, Well, why don’t you change them up? And I said, No, because they speak so well do each other. I’m not going to mess up this constellation of these psychic and mythic fields. But then I started teaching the Divine Comedy, and devoted the entire course to you know, that epic, but I didn’t want to miss with the way these three epics are always in conversation with each other. And it really shows when I read the final papers, from students in the epic imagination. They’re among some of the best writing I got from students, because they entered as a fourth in that tripartite conversation and there’s your mandolin. Yep. There’s, there’s the four parts. And they knew something was happening in them. Not necessarily through any one of the works, although many would inflict their paper onto one more than the other two, which was perfectly fine, because that one really spoke to them. But I wanted them to write an inter textual final paper. Find some threads that you can at least mention. You don’t have to develop them, but show that you’re thinking in this polyvalent way. Yeah, and then we’re up to the task. I mean, they did really well.
Clay Boykin 48:25
This just blows me away. Because you touched on something that I’ve not realized. So many times, if I’m reading one book, I’m reading Young. I’ve got to be reading it and you’re over here in Slattery. I gotta three books going? Good. That’s great. I have to have three books going because I’m the fourth. You’re the fourth. And that’s it. All eternity. I never ever dawned on me until just this moment.
Dennis Slattery 49:01
And not nor on me. As I was saying, it came into my head. Wait a minute, the student handing the paper in is the fourth. Forming the mendillo from the three. Yo, oh, my here we here. We’ve come back to it. And now both of us have another experiential dimension. To to it. Yeah, there’s,
Clay Boykin 49:33
yeah. It’s a point to savor, isn’t it?
Dennis Slattery 49:39
You know, when I’m rereading parts of Moby Dick to prepare a talk for Dallas at the end of July, and my gosh, Ishmael, is citing history, philosophy. They’ll cite Dante, Conte, you know, his Melville published did when he was 32 Has this massive encyclopedic library library in his head? And he’s always making. He’s always weaving, weaving, weaving, weaving. And it’s magnificent to read, and then see what we’ve, your eye as readers of Moby Dick can add to it. Yeah. And I think that’s the point of the of that epic. Yeah,
Clay Boykin 50:31
yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s been fascinating. I know, you’re, we’re coming up on time. But what you’ve helped me do in this short period is, is begin to take the methodology that instinctively has come up for me, that’s I learned was a mandala is learned about quaternity. And learning about the depths of that in the way that I express it. And then how you’ve experienced it with the young. They’re complementary experiences. They are and in there’s this Yes. spacing between the two that I’m working to bridge over to your experience. Yes, you know, or at a young experience, and what you’re helping me do is, is kind of understand it, because I would other people are drawing these models that are geometric and so forth. And they’re pretty beautiful words. Yeah. Yeah. Are they getting? We’re all getting our own thing from it. But am I even saying ballpark is where they are, in what they’re experiencing by by doing their design versus how my approach is where I’m taking words and symbols and putting them in spatial relationship to one another within the eternity. So the meaning, you know, this symbol next to this symbol has a different meaning in between, then if those symbols were this way, or if they were this way? Yes. And that’s playing with?
Dennis Slattery 52:22
Clay Boykin 52:24
God, please. No, no, you go ahead. Well, what I’m in but what I’m what you’re experiencing and approaching it from a from a fascinating direction that that I want to spend more time considering. Yeah, it’s not this or but it’s, it’s a yes. And, and I think it may help me bring my mom to work on next step.
Dennis Slattery 52:51
Yeah. And, you know, Clay, this conversation has been so wonderful. And the whole time I look at I’m looking at you, and it’s your magnificent Mondello behind. I mean, what a background for this conversation. Oh, my gosh,
Clay Boykin 53:06
I got to share this with you. You know, I draw it. And it changes every time I start a new journal, right? Yes. Well, okay. It was at your it was it was at the workshop in Santa Fe. And I think I shared this with you that I finished this
Dennis Slattery 53:29
one. Yes, I know. Look at that. I can’t believe you finished it. And where are you finished it?
Clay Boykin 53:39
It had some pieces, some spaces. That just wasn’t coming to me. And just being in the session? Yes. Wasn’t anything specific? Oh, this piece was gonna go right here. No, but it was brought back up into me things that belonged here. It allowed me to access that. Yes. And it happened very quickly. Yes. Here’s the rest of the story. Okay, finished. I filled up this book. And now
Dennis Slattery 54:15
oh, I can see it. Yes, I’m wrong. Wow. Well, you you validate or you witness what you just said the power of entering the field. And when I teach and when I do these writing retreats or whatever it is, my attitude contributes to how much people feel. They can enter the field and when they enter it, and they feel the energy of others who are already in the field or in process. I think everybody’s imagination is ramped up. I’d love it when somebody would say that the hotel Santa Fe, oh, I wasn’t going to read. But I think I have to read this. I mean, there’s the field in fighting them, you have a voice to add it to the field, you don’t know who might be affected in in a deep way. And then we’d hear the conversations, and you were part of them. Where people would say, what you read. And you’ve said it to me here a couple of times already, what you wrote or what you’ve said, entered my field. And now there’s a piece that is there. That wasn’t before. I mean, for me, that’s the whole. That’s where all the juice is. Yeah.
Clay Boykin 56:01
There’s a point about Santa Fe, that I’m just now realizing is that we had another common element that was affecting us all in different ways. And that was the altitude. Yes, we are. It’s 72 has been huge. In You and I both felt it. Oh, boy. And when you started our session or workshop, I want to call it a retreat is more retreat
Dennis Slattery 56:39
that really it was it? Yeah, I liked that word better, also.
Clay Boykin 56:44
And when we started, and you commented, you know, say, you know, the altitude is kind of got me here a little bit. I remember mentally leaning in just a little bit more when you said that. And think the nature of the circle that we had assembled that you’d brought together. Everybody leaned down a little bit. And I think it was because there was that element. I know personally, I was like wanting to lift you up, like, you know, you’ve got this. Yeah, I think there was another connection that we made amongst the circle. Read, it wasn’t you standing up? And and you don’t do that anyway. But it’s not an instructor up there. No, we were all on Common Ground. You know, and learning from one another at your guidance,
Dennis Slattery 57:48
you know, and that was I mean, what was the one of the elements that I love about that? Is that I’m learning to? Yeah, because I’m incorporated into what’s going on? Not controlling it.
Clay Boykin 58:03
That’s what’s engaging, because you would express that when you when you’re learning something. It was, it was a shared learning.
Dennis Slattery 58:16
Clay Boykin 58:20
Another level of connection that you achieve and in that retreat,
Dennis Slattery 58:27
well, I’m just thankful that you with a little prodding from your wonderful wife showed up, it was so great to have you as part of it. And I was so happy for you to meet a number of people that have been in my life as students as teacher, Barbara, child, and Tony and no, it was just it was fabulous. You were meant to be there. I hope you feel that. I’m sure you do.
Clay Boykin 58:58
I do. Thank you. Well, I’d like to continue. Well, I’m gonna we can let this kind of soak in and let me savor it a bit, then I’ll be ready for another round. And yeah, like I
Dennis Slattery 59:14
always enjoy it. Time with you because we don’t Xerox one another, but we’re both in the same field. And then we we open that field up I think for one another, which is the one of the great treasures of convert real conversations. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, brother.
All right. Take care. Love you clay. We’ll talk soon. Bye bye. Bye. Check out the latest episode
The Liminal Odyssey: The Alchemical Power of the Space In-Between– “Everyone has a unique story known only to them that when shared is a sacred gift to the world. In her book, The Liminal Odyssey: The Alchemical Power of The Spaces In-Between, Sande Hart’s life experiences flow authentically onto the page and reveal her own dance within her own sacred liminal space. From her sobering and chilling experience, visiting Auschwitz and Birkenau death camp, to her cry out to the stadium-filled crowd to save an abandoned dog, Sande captures and shares many life lessons that evoked inspiration, and at times melted me into a sacred surrender to truths I had only known unconsciously.” – Clay Boykin
We all have, we’re all encoded like that seed. We’re all encoded with the potentiality of 10,000 forests. One oak tree can produce up to 10,000 forests, by all the seats that potentially can draw, and plant and grow again.
We have a design assignment, I believe Aristotle calls it our calling where your passions meet the needs in the world, therein lies your calling. And it goes so much deeper than that, of course, yet it’s about what is it that makes us come alive? And why aren’t we living there? Because that’s, you know, where our potential gift is to the world. And maybe that’s what we all need to be showing up with.
The book has really moved me it takes incredible courage to share on the level that you shared. Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male.
My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay boykin.com for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male.
Hello World. It’s me Dennis and we are in search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this particular podcast I’m here with the founder clay Boykin, oh, Clay, hey, Dennis, my dear friend, Sande Hart is back. Sande and I met in 2018, the fall of 2018 at the Parliament of the world’s religions. And I can tell you, she took me under her wing, and was instrumental in moving forward the work that we’ve been doing with men and raising compassion, consciousness and men. And we’re just pleased to have her here. She’s got a new book. And we’re going to talk about that and whatever comes up.
Oh, wonderful. How wonderful. Welcome, Sande. Well, thank you so much. I am thrilled to be here. I am thrilled to be here and you didn’t stand in my way too long.
You flew right out of there. And look what you’ve managed. And you and Dennis together are amazing and breathtaking. To behold, we’re you know, we’re we’re
Thank you, Sande it is How gracious of you it is. It is amazing to me because we still see the power structure that is still predominantly male, and certainly predominantly white male and older, white male as we’re seeing this. So the power structure and the dynamics are shifting to this wonderful interdependence, this wonderful collection of knowing that that the world is a yes. And rather than a then an OR gate. And and this is the place where you’re playing with your new book and all on can you talk a little bit about what’s going on? And what your what what is impelled you to write this wonderful tome.
Yes, thank you. Well, first of all, yes, we are definitely in an evolutionary growth spurt. And you know, you had two very dear friends of mine on your program not too long ago, Connie Baxter Marlowe and Andrew Cameron Bailey, who wrote the trust frequency, and one of their 10 assumptions isour 10… Yeah, I think the 10 assumptions are that are we are humanity is an upward spiral motion. But I challenge that, and I love Connie and Andrew and I will respectfully have the same conversation with them. But why is it we keep spiraling? What is it that keeps us coming back around and moving up ever so gently?
What is it that keeps us from elevating at such a slower pace, and right now it feels like the trajectory is accelerated and it’s going up straight, I don’t see it coming back around to the very point of what you’re working on. And that’s the patriarchy and, and the domination trance that we’ve been walking through that Dr. Riane Eisler speaks of, and because we are walking through these assumptions of the way things used to be that that male and female feminine and masculine have these different identities but now we’re pulling back the veil on that. And and those assumptions that no longer service with the work that you are doing, which is so critically profound to that. You’ve really gone right to the heart of that darkness. It’s served us patriarchy has served us. It’s yeah, it’s time has come.
Well it’s time for it to evolve as time. I’m free to move to the next level, like you’re saying, right? Isn’t it something we’re, and I know, I’m guilty of this of trying to hold on to the past, you know, I wish things were the way they used to be. Well think about that I don’t, I really don’t think I want that. But I keep migrating back in, it’s almost like, I’m not going to change until I have to change until the pressures are such that, that I’ve got no choice but to change. And I feel like that’s where we are in the world right now
Yeah, that’s the creative tension that always comes before great change. So we can bless that creative tension, you know, the piling on of crises that we don’t even have to name here. But then when we can look at the things that are changing the assumptions that are falling off, like what we consider identity, what we consider feminine and masculine even. Yeah, and so we’re and the way technology has been accelerating and speeding up and created lots of havoc in our life, it’s also helped us consciously grow because we have information coming at a so quickly, that we have no choice but to expand our mind and our thinking and our ability to, to, to, to receive information.
And it’s both it’s both a great tension. With a great it’s like when you put a seed in the ground, the seed first has to disintegrate before New Life can grow from it. Right? And what grows from it looks very different from the seed, right? We’re at that place in evolution where we could see both the seed and the sprout wildly wonderful time to be alive.
Gosh, I go back to Dana White talking with this. And the myth of progress, you know, and how it’s been going for the past 500 years, and the whole idea of technology and faster and faster and faster. In contrast, though, he talks about the myth of the fall, the story of the fall, you know, progress, but there’s the downside to it. And we’re certainly seeing that accentuated right now.
Yeah. From Joseph Campbell, from death comes life. All the myths. So stories are dying. And we have a choice, it is our moment of choice. We want the midwife service or casualties.
Yeah, it is and, and in your book, and I’m gonna name your book.
Oh, yes, thank you.
The book is titled the liminal Odyssey, the alchemical power of the spaces in between the beautiful book. And in it, you reference the Joseph Campbell’s hero’s journey. But you’ve got a twist, or you’ve got modification or you’ve added to it can you talk about that some Sande?
Yeah, I found that I originally set out to frame my, the stories that appeared to me in my life, in in the hero’s journey, and started doing my own charting of what was happening in my life, if I could look at it through that lens. And the hero’s journey really fell short for me. And I realized that the linear the linear fashion of the hero’s journey is kind of specific. First comes the call to action then comes to the appearance of allies and wizards, and, and, and so on. And I think you can be you can be all of these things at once. You know, I close my book on a real great example, if you say so myself on the call to action and the resurrection, step one and step 10. Together.
Oh, well expire. It’s not even a spiral. It’s six and it’s AGS. A Bob around.
Thank you. All right, May I May I use a metaphor, please. i When, when we had back when Joseph Campbell was writing this, we were very much in a linear world. It was very much of one thing happened after another we did this when very much in our, in our process. This is what the the this is the pre the digital immigrants. These are this is the pre that we had but the today, it’s a nonlinear world, so that the kids like Okay, so he’s 18 and wants to have his midlife crisis at 18 Go ahead and have it get it out of the way and continue on. So I love that idea because we can actually, we can actually create the journey at time when we need it rather than having it prescribed for us.
Absolutely. And that has something to do with patriarchy to. Things are a certain way because that’s just the way they are because someone prescribed them that way. And we’re waking up.
What what is the courage that it takes for you to be out on the leading edge to be able to do this? Because you’re gonna, because you have to be willing to be able to have people go, Oh, are you okay? What? So I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s
And I go like this, like, teach teach.
I thought it was bring it on, bring it.
And I and I actually I say, Listen, we read my book, and then go to Amazon and leave a review. And I can even this even a crunchy one, even one that isn’t glowing. That’s how I have to learn these things. That’s part of my liminal Odyssey. I have to be able to clear all the stuff that doesn’t serve me. I don’t have to agree with you. But you know, when you’re talking about courage, yeah, vulnerability is required if you’re going to sit down and write a book, right?
Oh, my God. Yes.
Yeah, and it’s required in a limit a lot of sleep. And I think you’re only as strong as your willingness to be vulnerable.
Well, I want to ask you Liminal Odyssey how’d you come up with the title?
You know, I didn’t set out to write a book about liminal space. I did not even know what liminal meant until about a year ago. And even then I learned it to me threshold, and the space between crisis and choice or crisis and action. And, you know, before that, I was starting to write a, I’ve been trying to write a story about something that happened in the 1982 at the Rose Bowl at a no nukes rally called Peace Sunday. I’ve told this story before. It’s a remarkable story. It had some synchronistic stories that lasted over the course of 30 years. And like, I got to tell the story, or others are saying you’ve got to tell the story. But I didn’t have enough of the story to write. And as I’m, as I’m sitting down to write it again. I started really paying attention to what was going on inside of me what caused what what it was that prompted me in that moment to create what was a wave of a critical mass to care about a single dog in the midst of 100,000 people that unknown next rally. The last 12 hours. Tell us about the dog. What about the dog?
Yeah, so it was no nukes rally and music festival. It was tucked right between Woodstock and Live Aid. It was a cause concert. So in between the activists and the speakers and musicians. There were moments of silence Now earlier in the day. The emcee hit a rider right from the very start, the emcee came to the microphone, and said, Hey, we just got a report from the parking lot. Somebody left their dog in the car. If that’s your job, please go roll your windows down. There was a low grade blue and then you know everyone forgot about it except for me. Speaker I think it was Reverend Jesse Jackson comes to the microphone says some words of wisdom leads and before the band can start playing the first band. I think it was todo I don’t remember. Taj Mahal it was Taj Mahal.
Sitting, started singing or playing their music. I just started chat. Shouting, what about the dog? What about the dog? I was relentless. I was the relentless irritans. So they would have to answer I’m thinking surely they care about the dog. Surely they’ll report back. And then my moment came again. After the band was done before the next speaker come to the mic. I started again, only now my friends started with me. Didn’t take long before a whole section started. By noon, the whole stadium was chanting. What about the dog? It took off without me and lasted until 10 o’clock it well? No, it was more like seven o’clock when the emcee came to the microphone and said, so you want to know about the dog?
The dog is fine. Now odds are they just realized they would have to come then, you know answer that the question of the day because Mr. Stevie Wonder was coming and asking for five minutes of silence for to pray for world peace. But that was a story that I had no other story to tell it and about one, you know, time 15 or 20 years later. And then someone said, Wow, that’s a great story. You should really tell that story. And it grew legs on its own. And I sat down to write about what was going on inside of me. They got me to open my mouth. And I’m like, Oh, I’m, I get liminal. Now. I get Okay, there was my crisis. And here’s my call to action in the hero’s journey, and what was going on inside me, reverent listening, I read reverent listening. So the more I started writing about that experience, and what was going on inside of me, and what was reverent listening, the sacred art of listening, other stories started, kind of, you know, lining up, and they were all wildly synchronistic. And they were all anchored in a different skill, whether it was whether it’s the trust frequency, that’s a chapter in my book, recognizing your archetype. And I frame that in the goddess archetype, Maiden, mother and crone which you can also be all three at a time, which I play my living generally.
And listening to your body and understanding mindfulness in a different way. So each story is anchored with a different skill set. And then I stood back and I went, Oh, wait, all those skills together, I pulled them out. And I looked at them. And I’m like, independently, they’ve all got merit independently. They’re all really powerful and respected practices. And they are all practices, which by the way, neuro neuroplasticity and how Dr. James Doty, who has also been a guest has influenced me greatly. And, but what happens when you practice them together? There’s that coherence, there’s that coherence that were that were the individual skills, collectively are greater than the sum of their parts. So we have to practice Reverend listening in order for us to understand trust for us to understand, you know, the biology and how our, our body is wired, for compassion, how to understand what the multi sensory perceptions are, Gary Zooka speaks to understand that thoughts happen outside of ourselves that Dr. James Lipton talks about, and James Hillman and all those that came before him, and and you know, of course, giving credit respectfully, but how, collectively they are interdependent, mutually supportive, and create their own constellation. And like, Okay, this is sounding like a preachy book. I don’t, I don’t, I’m not going to write a preachy book, because, like I said, I’m here to learn.
And, wait, what would happen if I took other like, air Aveda, which I did, or the chakra systems and understanding crystals and all of that, or whatever skills that you, you as the reader, you know, find super helpful, what happens when you just put them in that petri dish and mix it up? It works, it works, you know, for everything. So, yeah, I’ve got, I’ve kind of like, I’m looking at a bookshelf with 300 books, and probably 250 different modalities and methodologies, but they’re single. They’re single processes. What happens when you take all the processes we already know, that worked for us, and put them together?
That’s the liminal Odyssey, when you can stop in the spaces in between, and apply those skills and expand what may seem like a mundane, otherwise unremarkable experience like an MC saying, hey, somebody left their dog in the car. So it’s still going on and still having synchronistic events from that. It didn’t make it into the book, by the way.
Not the maybe not this book.
I keep going back to the dog. And, you know, what started out as you as an individual and then two people to make a wave 100,000 people making that wave? It hit me like a tsunami. And how long has it been how many years and it was so powerful the way you wrote it, and the way you shared it… it really hit me. Like it’s hit me now. And so yeah, and that’s just the start of the book.
This is, this is so holy to watch to see to participate in this because this, what I love about what the precursor to that time, is how quickly we can connect on the internet. Now, how quickly we can get a wonderful idea out there, how quickly we can get the opportunity to be able to let people know what’s wonderful, we in the news business have been lazy and lazy in the sense that we will, we will only focus on something that is sensational. Whereas something that is powerful, this liminal space between being able to sit there in this, in this space is, is where it all happens. Without it, nothing else occurs.
I actually talk about in the sacred art of listening, talking about how we’ve been duped that to receive so much information so quickly just look at TV commercials, right? Absorb all this information, but there’s not enough time to stop and think, Is that really what I consider happiness? Is that going to make my life better if I buy that car? Yeah, you know, but I do have time to call the number, right. I can read that I can remember that number. But I can’t remember to stop in the moment. sacred art of listening, by the way is how to prepare to listen, not the act of listening, but the How to Prepare to listen. And so
I think it’s really important to, to really pay attention to how much we listen. And that’s a practice. It is a habit to form. And we can do that through neuroplasticity all of these skills can be practiced and accomplished just like any other habit, you want to form that repetition.
What is this book, leading you to do differently in your life than you had before? Because something is, it’s palpable. There is some there’s something that is so dynamic about where you are right now and what you’re bringing, which is going to bring opportunities that are increasing and what you’re what you’re doing. I’m fascinated to know what’s going on.
Wow, thank you so much. My first answer is I don’t know. Which is my favorite thing to say. Because that means I’m not attached. That means I can really listen and pay attention. And that is so against the character of who I used to be. Right. I used to feel like I need to be in control. I need a chart my way. I’ve got my goals. We have a vision board. We know ultimately, we want to have this house on the beach, you know, with all you know, certain material things actually. On the sidelines with our grandkids playing soccer, no doubt about that. And I believe that could happen, or will happen. I should say, I believe that will happen. But in terms of where I’m going, how has it changed me with your question? Or what have I noticed in myself?
Let’s let’s just put what are you noticing, right, right now as it’s happening?
Oh, yeah. Big difference there. Yeah, the time fulness my, the word that I coined time fulness time for like being mindful. But now we’re being timeful. So it’s like, it’s not just taking a pause and collecting yourself, which it does involve that it’s going okay, what’s going on in my body? What are my true are my trillion cells speaking to me right now? 37 trillion cells to be exact? Yeah. What are they saying to me? You know, how am I feeling in my body right now? What’s going on around me? What am I missing? You know, it’s really applying those those skills in in terms of time, fullness spaces in between. And I’m not so quick to judge. I’m definitely, um, more careful in my responses, care dash full in my responses. And I just am more courageous. Like, like, all a lot of the muck has just fallen away.
A lot of stuff that I realized, why aren’t I doing that? My Wait, am I not? I’m not. I’m not good enough. Or I’m not smart enough. I’m not educated enough. All that blah, blah, blah, that we hear that? You know, for years, women say to themselves way too much, and I can’t speak for men, I can only hear what I hear from say what I hear from women. And it’s not that it’s really embodying that. So they go, I’ve only got probably a good 3040 more years on this planet. Sure. So I’m gonna max it out the last 40 years have been sorry, my kids last six years. Subliminal, subliminal. So six. You know, my last six years have been incredibly wild and wonderful. And so yeah, and also, I was just talking about this the other day on another program about forgiveness. And looking at the big T traumas, a couple of witches share in the book. So talk about vulnerability.
The big T, the traumas that I had in a moment I would think, Oh my god, this is the worst possible thing that 30 years later, I would come to see where the greatest blessings. So I remember that now something’s not working out for me even something like being late. I’m like, Okay, what am I doing? Because I hate being late. And for me, that’s a, that there’s something that I must have been traumatized as a child because for me being late is like being rude. But I don’t want to be late. But But okay, I wonder what I’m being protected from right now. I wonder what’s going to happen on the other end, somebody sucks me in the throat figuratively breaks, my heart keeps me in bed for three months. That didn’t happen that long ago.
And I and I was, you know, really devastated. Yet. If that were to happen to me now I’d say, I can’t wait to see what this is all about. So that’s part of the time fulness to that I have only noticed happening me I didn’t necessarily will it practicing these other skills. And of course, writing about it Sure, sure does help, but really embodying it. You know, I’d be a hypocrite if I didn’t practice this stuff. And I do.
Oh, yes. But that’s, that’s really the whole key to it. I’ve never known a teacher. I’ve never known a teacher, that that impacted me that did not walk there first, did not do the walk first and then say, okay, there. That’s the teaching. That’s the teaching. And that’s what I’m getting from you, Sande, that’s what I’m getting an opportunity to be able to know. There is this opportunity, because I love to. I love to give part in forgive. And really, really the gift that there is for me what I am holding on to what I’m because I’ve got a lot of self, I grew up with a lot of we as men had a something that clay and I have both experienced that had a model out there, that we were supposed to live up to that inside of us when that’s not who I am. And this is allowing us this the patriarchy that we’re all wounded by the patriarchy in the sense that it allows us to be able to let go that to be able to have that to, for me to embody who I am. And whoever that is. And that’s what I get from you. There’s such an deep authenticity about about you, that just is profoundly moving. And no matter where you are right now,
I’m going to pick right up on that, Dennis, because, yeah, what about the dog? Every story that you share in there the vulnerability that you’re expressing in your book. Every story has real power to it. And I’m savoring it. If I can, I’m going to, because I really want us to, I really want to hear about this, I want to race to chapter 12.
Oh, thank you. And by the way, can I just go back and say, Clay, you helped me with forgiveness. Remember, we had a conversation while I was writing the book. So credit where credit’s due, you really helped me understand and you reframed everything for me. So you are totally in the fabric of you are in between the words on that chapter. So chapter 12.
About acorn rain in Birkenau. Yeah. Can you share about that?
Yeah, I was part of the one humanity Institute, a group of folks who are still in existence working on a project to build an education system right there in Auschwitz, right, adjacent to the grounds of the Auschwitz museum, the death camp, and we did a tour there. And then we went across the way to Birkenau which was another death camp. And while we were in the, by the way, while I was going through the tour, the very first thing I noticed after I walked through those very famous, wrought iron archway, words, work will set you free is what that says in German. I noticed the trees lining the walkways. Now they were rather young. But I imagined Gosh, I wonder maybe those trees have been here for about 80 years. Perhaps they have been here long enough. And we shot and I hugged one. That’s all I could do is think about the trees and what stories they absorbed and what scenes they saw on what did they witness and, and so I was really seeing this whole thing through the trees and then we get over to Birkenau And we’ve done the whole tour, guided by the way, and we get to the end of the, like a big park area, the end of the tour.
And there’s this big park area where they’re monuments and things and burnt down buildings. And there was this gorgeous grandmother’s oak tree. She her trunk was so big that my arms would probably take three sets of arms to get around her trunk. So I’m like, she’s been here a while. She’s witnessed it all. And I asked permission, and I wrap my arms around her ever so gently, and I can almost feel her exhale. I don’t think I wrote this in the book, I can still feel it felt like the trunk was just relax. And then all of a sudden, I hear raindrops behind me. And I look and I’m being showered by acorns.
And I turned in Nina Meyerhof, by the way, who wrote my forward in my book, and I sit, she was walking towards me, I gotta to see.
Again, like, what about the dog, I was wondering if it really happened. So I saw that. And so the acorn is run the acorn right there. So that, for me, what was so profound about that experience, and I can come around to maybe what reminded you about that with forgiveness. But you know, we’re all we all have, we’re all encoded like that seed. We’re all encoded with the potentiality of 10,000 forests. One oak tree can produce up to 10,000 forests, by all the seeds that potentially can draw, and plant and grow again. We have a design assignment, I believe, Aristotle calls that are calling where your passions meet the needs in the world, therein lies your calling. And it goes so much deeper than that, of course. Yeah, it’s about what is it that makes us come alive? And why aren’t we live in there? Because that’s, you know, where our potential gift is to the world. And maybe that’s what we all need to be showing up with.
So, for me, that’s, you know, the whole nut excuse the expression of the story. The next morning, I was up for a early jetlag stroll, which I was usually up around 4am. And I took a little walk in a quaint little town of us suites them, which is Polish frosh, Auschwitz, through Auschwitz, this polish fraud suites. And over this quaint little walking bridge, I stood right in the middle of with the river going right under me. And the lush greenery up and down the river bed was so pretty, and like I had done throughout the whole town, wondered where Jews would have hidden and I’m thinking, I wonder they hid there. But now, these these, the greenery is all home for new life for critters for birds, that face or putting oxygen in the air. And adjacent interesting. And then all of a sudden, I realized the river I was standing over was the very river that the concentration camps had dumped the ashes, prisoners into height, the height, the evidence. And I’m thinking, Oh, that’s why everything is so lush, because all of that greenery, UPS, all of those banks absorbed all those souls.
And then I saw souls in the tree and I trees and I heard this. We choose love. Of course, we choose love. Anything else does not serve our memory. And then I felt just go forth and be in love. And that is that’s a big, tall order to forgive that that remember, well, what are what would they all want us to be what they want us to be bitter down here.
I don’t see how it could be any other way.
Yeah. And I heard it from them. And it was so clear. And I can feel it now. Yeah. And the book was actually going to be called acorn rain and Birkenau. That was my working title. Because to me, that’s a culmination. The ability to recognize what was going on in that moment was the culmination of everything leading up to that point in the book.
You know, I think about that, I think about the concept of when when we think of either atheism or agnosticism more or and all the different spiritualities and it all comes down for me that God is Love it’s the actual I know I felt that I have felt God I have felt God because I have loved i that is the it filters through all my own biases and and limitations and all but but I get a chance to feel the right stuff. And the people that have that have that pure mainline of it Buddha or Jesus or any of the other great that you know, they all that what they did was to they were at one with perfect love. And that that love space. So that’s that’s where that’s where I choose to say that we none of us can be agnostic, because we feel love. And that love just we just happen to name it. We put a name on it and say okay, God and all that, but it’s but at its essence, it’s love.
I felt love several times during this call. I fall in love all day long, all day long. Especially with strangers. I mean, I mean, yeah, I love I love just watching people. I just feel the love. Yeah, Thomas Thomas Merton, and conjectures from a bystander. He talks about how he falls that he just had an epiphany that was it was the Epiphany, actually, the epiphany that he just loved all these people, and I was tears in their mind.
Sande. This just comes up a lot. And and I think it’s even been on the podcast before but this idea of inter generational trauma. And, what, can you talk about that a little bit?
Yeah, so thank you, that’s a big one. We are all carrying some baggage. Right? Our cellular memory has been loaded up. And, and a lot of it’s really good stuff, right? We’ve inherited some great stuff and with hair, inherited a lot of stuff that doesn’t serve us and keeps coming back around. And when I was noticing some patterns in my life with relationships, a friend said, You need to go ritualize it kind of go back and look at what what happened to you. Where that same kind of problem first emerged or could have first emerged in ritualize it then call in your ancestors and your angels or whoever you want to call in, and have conversations about it and ask good questions. And so kind of sent me on the path to looking into intergenerational trauma. And then, I found myself co producing a Passover Seder with Dr. Riane, Eisler, and, and Starhawk and some other amazing women and Dr. Rabbi Tirzah. Firestone based upon Rabbi Dr. Rabbi Tirzah, whose book wounds into wisdom, healing, intergenerational Jewish trauma is just significant. It’s just an incredible book, and you don’t have to be Jewish to read it. And in that, I recognized the patterns in my life, were not only coming down at a cellular level, but they were coming down to behaviors to know my mom and dad learned how to respond to certain situations and held certain belief systems and, and so on, that they picked up from their mothers and ancestors as well. So who knows how far back that’s gone. But at a cellular cellular level, we are programmed. You know, I would I would venture to say that as a Jew, I’m going to respond much more differently to the threat of an oligarch, let’s say, then, or a dictator, like Hitler, than somebody who isn’t Jewish, or maybe hasn’t gone through the Aspera. And because that is encoded in who we are, it’s part of our survival mechanism.
You know, Sande, it just, it just hit me. When I when I was thinking about Energen generational trauma. I’ve always thought about it. This is something to get over. This is something to get rid of. But yes, that’s true in a lot of senses. But there’s the trauma from our past generations also brings with it wisdom.
So alchemize is perhaps how I would put it, optimize it, embody it because it’s who you are. That’s another thing with forgiveness. I don’t want to forget the stuff that hurt me. It’s who I am, it informs me that I choose how, if I’m going to perpetuate the pain or the bliss, right?
I choose the direction to which I stand. I stand either toward the light or away from it. I can choose that.
Yeah, yeah, we have choice. And we forget that and you can discover that in liminal space. Oh, yeah. I don’t have to go that way. Oh, yeah, I have what it takes.
And that’s and I just, I find that so inspirational. And where are you where you’re going? So? So what is on your what is on your plate forward? Are you going on on tour? With the book are you going on? Now that we’re in in April of 2022? We’re coming out of a time of intro version where we’re all where we’ve had to be inside. And now we’re now we’re getting a chance to rejoin what, what kind of lessons? And what are you taking? Where are you going with this particular piece of work? Right now I’m recording the audio book.
And some cases, I’m saying the sentence was over three times.
I’m so glad you’re reading it, because that means that makes such a difference to me when an author reads her book, rather than rather than having having a wonderfully professional actor, it especially when it’s something that is deeply personal is this.
hank you, you know, the whole book has been that way for me from the cover to from cover to cover. Honestly, it’s it’s been deeply personal. And I wanted it to be in its highest integrity and authenticity. So although I don’t necessarily care for the sound of my own voice, I been encouraged by many and many saying the same thing as you that I should read it. And I’m glad I am. I’m glad I am
So glad. I’m sorry, isn’t that interesting that we would, we would find the sounds of our own voices, or the seeing ourselves seeing our image in some way. Different I’ve often felt, Sande, that, that, I don’t know if you’ve ever expected a bite of food to taste a certain way. And it just tastes different than what you expect. And it just, it’s just
It’s usually when I cook.
Well, but I think that’s the way it is with our boys. Because it goes through our belt goes through it goes through our brain, it’s it’s different in the same way that when we look ourselves in the mirror, we can never lose eye contact. So that when we see ourselves in a picture, it’s a different, it’s from a different perspective. So it makes us uncomfortable. But the more we do that, the more that you have this lovely voice that you can continue and let it be let it resonate with us, the more you’re going to enjoy it, the more that we’re going to get an opportunity to be able to have your to be able to have this this you do that that’s tremendous. It feels like something is shifting something something profound with a human being is is emerging. We talked about this before clay, you know, when we had on the podcast that that like, what would what would an evolutionary imperative be? What would it be when we were shifting from this to our next level of evolutionary state? And how would we be the conduits for that happening? We’re all midwives.
And that’s when we all wake up to say, no matter what we do, good are not so good. We’re midwifing this so I would like to believe that we’re we’re going everybody is going to be in their absolute impeccable integrity, showing up in their divine purpose in their divine purpose. Contributing and it’s gorgeous balance, I believe.
I agree. I’m going back to a previous comment about looking at ourselves in a mirror.
Yeah, that was good.
And it occurs to me that I know that I’ve learned a lot about myself the past couple of years because of zoom. Because I can see myself I can watch my mannerisms. And when I record I can hear the cause and the this is in the end so it’s almost like a self correcting or, or getting to know myself from a different vantage point.
Yeah, Dad, what about what about? What about appreciating your articulation how beautifully you speak, how kind you are, how the how creative and blessing that that you are. How about that, too?
Because that’s a really that’s a really good that’s a growth point isn’t it isn’t merely a corrective point, it is very much of an opportunity to be able to see ourselves through the through the lens of graciousness.
I feel that, you know, we’ve been talking now, I mean, over 100 podcasts, I think I want to ask you, though, in search of the new, compassionate male. And we’ve been on this journey, I don’t have the answer, but we’re asking the question. And we’re asking it out there. And I’m asking it inside myself. And I can’t help but feel like in the midst of all the chaos, all the trauma, all that’s happening right now, in this liminal space, that really, compassion is just right below the surface. And I’m going to speak about men specifically, that it’s there and it’s begging to get out. And we’re everything that we know is to push it down. And everything we know is falling down. It’s breaking. So with that breaking, the only can come out is our heart and compassion to balance the scale.
Well, as a fellow compassion activist. I agree. And it’s, it’s, you know, action. Compassion is, is a noun and a verb. Right, it’s in its we have a compassion nerve in our body. Our body is wired, as we heard from Jim Doty, our wire our body is wired for compassion. It’s who we are. And we’ve been denying it. Exactly. And it’s, it’s healthy for us. And it keeps us not only alive, and in community, that probably, I shouldn’t even say probably helps us live longer. I agree. I think every condition,
I think compassion could almost be considered the, the rubber band that has been stretched so far in the binary thinking that’s happening there. But this undercurrent of, of compassion that that rubber band not going to break. It’s going to hold and it will bring us back together again.
Yeah, well, I’m seeing it happen. That’s sprout, we can see.
That it is and so if, what if what’s going on now, Sande, and play if this, if this seed covering is what is appears is the chaos out there that is happening right now. But what is going to emerge as that seed covering gets down, that’s, that’s, it feels so strong. I so agree with you, Sande, that, that this is a process of subtraction, not addition, that we’re actually that I had our essence we are love, our we are we have this compat this essence of who we are that we have put these structures on top of. But as we remove them, as we peel this back, we get to the essence of who we are, and that’s beautiful. I mean, I I look into the eyes of people, and I see so much courage, and so much kindness and so much I agree with you about the strangers because when you can just look at someone’s face, even with a mask on and just smile at them and this they light up. I know it’s going to the world is going to be alright.
It’s so interesting. With the mask for me. I’ve learned to read eyes more than than before. And I’ve noticed I can sense or I can see pain, I can see happiness in the eyes. It before it was in the whole context of the whole body. But just looking there and it’s magical.
It’s it’s wild, crazy time. It really is an exciting, beautiful time to be on this planet. And I feel a huge responsibility to be in, in service to it. And and finding the courage through practicing the skills finding the courage to with every breath, showing up the best I can and I fall flat on my face sometimes I wasn’t the nicest I could be today with this customer service person on the phone. I apologize but like what was coming out, but we’re all human. But one thing we can be sure of that we have control over. And that is our integrity. And I can’t say this word enough Integrity and Authenticity. And I consciousness is rising. And we’re just, we’re just going into a different animal. I believe.
I do, too. I do, too. Oh, Sande, thank you so much for this time, this will, I’m going to wrap up my portion of this, I’m sure that there’ll be some wonderful after show that will be going. But I want to thank you for your, for your presence. And thank you for the opportunity to to experience you in real time. Because there is that there is an authenticity, I feel like I’m seeing the I’m seeing a soul in progress.
Thank you. Yeah, we all have an opportunity to free our soul. And that’s the only way to do it to live in our bliss.
Thank you, Clay. Thank you, Sande. And thank you, everyone who got an opportunity to join us on this episode of In Search of the New Compassionate male. We’ll see everyone back here soon.
That was so much fun. You’re right. It was the funnest conversation?
Well, I tell you, I’ve been so looking forward to this. And I’m serious. I’ve the book has really moved me.
And you move me so think or even?
Well, it’s it’s a it’s an inspiration for me. It takes incredible courage to share on the level that you shared. You hit it right on the nose. And you fold, this wasn’t I didn’t read this as a vanity book, right. I really felt like You wove your experiences into something to share. But your experiences were the kind of the backdrop to the real message.
Yeah. And you know what, what’s going? It’s so not like, knowing what was appropriate to put in the book. I just listen to my body. If if there was something rubbing me and I don’t think I would have this is another answer to to Genesis question about what am I noticing. There was a faint irritation going on behind my head with some things in the book and I’m like, Okay, I gotta go back. And either reread it and calm my nerves or whatever it is calm the calm the waters, or pull it out and see if I even need it. Yeah. And on more than one occasion, it required me to remove it completely. I’m like, Okay, I don’t need to tell that much of my story, or that’s not relevant. It’s not interesting. It’s getting way too personal. It’s not relevant to the story, you know, and it was all about listening to my body. And what felt right and what was there a rub.
Learning how to listen to my body is such a big deal. I’ve got I’ve got happy mad, glad and sad. Right? And, even that is in my head. What is your body feel when you’re sad? When we feel sad? No, no, no. What? What’s the visceral feeling? What is your body doing? Right? And it’s been this past couple of years. And well, I mean, since you and I’ve gotten to know each other, where I become more conscious of that. Oh, I’m feeling of my neck is stiff. You know? Oh, those are feelings.
Oh, yeah. And I’ve lost weight. Thinking. Am I full? I’m full. I don’t need any more. And I love to eat I lose weight so I can eat so out or, or I’m either I’m not hungry. Or I’m full. And I I you know, make my body happy. Oh, my earring. My earring I put on these earrings isn’t funny. I ended up not having to take them both off. But my earring was hurting me and I’m like, Okay, I only need to wear it for an hour. So, like, screws out. My ear hurts my I gotta love my body before my vanity. That’s why I only had one earring on when I came to the club and my hair was down.
Well and just learning that. It sounds so basic. It’s so fundamental.
It really is that easy. I mean, how are we built? We were built with this. We were built with this perfect machine. With an alert system, I think I use that expression. We have an alert system. You know, paying attention to my thoughts. My throat chakra is a big one for me. I once had one of the ambassadors of the charter for compassion women and girls. She had a, she and I had our own conversation. And she goes, she was Sande, unique, and she was a seer and you know really dialed in and she was you need to get yourself a blue stone. My daughter actually wrapped it in gold, so I could wear it on her necklace. You gotta get yourself a blue stunk as blue as the chakra up for the throat. And you need to meditate with it right here and ask yourself what aren’t what wants to be said that you’re not seeing? Or why aren’t you speaking your truth? Or why don’t you feel worthy enough in your voice? That was huge for me. So I’m always paying attention my throat. Is there’s something I have to say. Why aren’t the words flowing?
Yeah, you’ll get a kick out of this after my surgery in 2007. One of the first trips out that I went on was to a rock shop. And I don’t remember why we did it. But we went there looking around. And I was trying to figure out I didn’t know anything about crystals or any of that stuff. And I was picking through stuff. I don’t know what to get here. And this woman happened to be a standard this is this a will. What do you what do you what, what’s up, I said, Well, I’ve had this and this and this and I got this big scar and it’s done. You know? She said, Oh, rose quartz. And so I got some pieces of Rose Quartz. You’re gonna laugh but I taped those to my chest.
Oh, I’m not gonna laugh.
Yeah, I taped them to my chest and the healing this the scar that was forming. It went away. And I’ve just got this little line. And there’s something to that I read somewhere. It’s been years. It’s in one of my journals. Somebody identified 25 senses as opposed to six. And the one that comes to mind is the sense of what our eyes feel in light. That that’s a that we feel and different kinds of aching. It’s different than if I smashed my finger. You know, if you have bright light hits you in your eyes, you know there was a whole range of them and I was wondering when you were talking about the throat chakra if the throat chakra in itself is a different sense, that can be put in the category of taste smell.
Oh. Or is my is one my throat chakra is activated. Is it different than when my Sacral Chakra is activated? Or my whatever other chakras could be activated? Yeah. Oh, that there? There’s more. Wow, that’s really interesting. And as a matter of fact, on my kitchen table conversations for liminal Odyssey I’m having somebody come and talk about chakras and yeah.
Wow, I I want to enjoy editing this one.
Check out the latest episode of insert to the new compassionate mail on your favorite podcast station.
EP111: Don Frick – Ernest Shackleton – Servant Leadership (Part 3)
On the day when he first read Greenleaf’s essay The Servant as Leader in 1986, Don Frick decided to dedicate the rest of his career to understanding and teaching Greenleaf’s ideas about servant leadership. Since then, he has written books and essays about servant leadership—including Greenleaf’s biography—made presentations, conducted workshops, taught graduate seminars, and consulted with corporations on the principles of servant leadership. He is currently working on another book that offers details about how various organizations have implemented servant leadership. Before encountering Greenleaf’s work, Don engaged in multiple careers, including: managing departments at a university and museum of art; university teaching; television, radio, and film writing, production, and performance; trainer; specialist in advertising and marketing for Fortune 500 companies, plus an entrepreneur. His formal education includes a B.S. in Education, Master of Divinity, and PhD in Leadership and Organizational Studies.
David Loye, Riane Eisler’s beloved husband and partner, died of Covid during the night of January 24, 2022. This was two days after they celebrated their 45th Anniversary. We invite you to join Riane Eisler in honoring and remembering David.
Dr. Eisler 00:07
No ordinary Soviets had to stand in line for toothbrushes. I mean for so we were served caviar. And we were in a very fancy hotel in the four years of our suite was a grand piano. And it was like what is following the same domination economic is the connection between what happens in childhood between gender between family and what happens in the state or tribe. So that he, a couple of years ago, radically reduce the penalties for family violence.
Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay Boykin calm for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male. Hello
World. It’s me Dennis and Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this particular podcast and I’m here with the founder clay Boykin. Hello clay.
Hi, Dennis. I’m thrilled today to have with us Dr. Riane Eisler. Dr. Islur is a cultural historian, attorney, a futurist, a social system scientist and author of I forgot how many books but some of the ones that you may recognize off the top is the chalice in the blade sacred pleasures, the real wealth of nations and the book that came out in 2019, nurturing our humanity, how domination and partnership shaped our brains lives in future. So Dr. Islur welcome.
Dr. Eisler 02:05
Thank you. And thank you Clay for starters, for the wonderful article that is actually on our website, Center for partnership.org. And for all the work that those of you are doing to really help men be human in the full sense of the word because it’s not only women who are challenging the old stereotypes, but men and that is such an important part of what I call the movement from nomination to partnership. So thank you.
You’re You’re You’re so welcome. Because this is what whatever I know that that we’re going to be able to work our way through this. This has to be a partnership, it has to be a collaboration. It has to be synergistic. One plus one is greater than two, and we’ve lived for so long in this zero sum. economic reality and that’s not how economics works as far as I understand it. And you’re talking about the new economy, how we’re going to create this and work in your work in economics and your your thoughts systems about the partnerships. Could you talk a little about this and what’s on your mind and heart?
Dr. Eisler 03:34
Let me start have Seaford may start with, on a more personal note, please. Because I have a great deal of passion for this work. And that passion is actually rooted deeply in my own early life as a child refugee with my parents, Nazi Europe, from Vietnam, where I was born, and very early in my life. And this is really directly now related to your question. I began to ask questions that I think most of us have asked at some point in our lives, does it have to be this way? When we humans have such a tremendous capacity, both women and men or consciousness for caring for creativity? Why has there been so much insensitivity, so much cruelty so much destructive test and start to do my multidisciplinary cross cultural trends historical study? To answer that question until much later, but I as you mentioned, Clay, I’m an assistive person and I’m interested in what kind of society will support our end No, I’m assuming capacity, as I said, we’re carrying the consciousness for creativity, rather than because we obviously also have laws, then we’re insensitivity, cruelty destructive. And in the course of this work, I, of course, look at our past that are present, and most importantly, at the possibilities for our future, including our economic possibilities with this book that came out of this study was the chalice in the blade. And then came sacred pleasure. And then a number of other books. And then I realized that I could not answer the questions of my childhood, by looking through the conventional lenses of capitalist versus socialist, west, north versus south, religious versus secular, etc. And I kept seeing these two configurations, the domination system and the partnerships this. And I then applied the, these two systems configurations, to the study of economics, which goes right to your question was the book called The Real wealth of nations. And something that really struck me is that the mindset that we have inherited, is so strange. It’s really our heritage from earlier more rigid domination times. And it is to the values of most important human work, which is the work of caring, what people are curious, and caring for our natural life support systems. And if you look at those, the work of Smith and Marx, you see that for them, this work was to be done for free by a woman in a male controlled household. Yes. And, you know, when we were supposed to take care of children of the sick, keep a clean and healthy, warm environment, which of course then translates into keeping a clean and healthy planetary environment.
Dr. Eisler 07:41
There is nothing in either capitalist or socialist theory about caring for nature, nature, as far as closeness and marks were concerned, is simply there to be exploited. That’s it. And as I said, the work of caring for people starting in first, that’s women’s work, be done in a male controlled for free, the male controlled household, and they call it reproductive rather than productive. So if you fast forward to GNP, that is what it reflects. It’s an economic ground, that simply excludes the three life sustaining sectors, without which we would not be here, without which there would be no economy, the natural economy, the volunteer community, economy, and the household. So when you’re asked me this question, it’s impossible to add to answer it in terms of the old debate that so many people are still engaged in capitalism versus socialism or communism. Frankly, a colleague of mine calls these old categories weapons of mass destruction. Our consciousness,
yes, and one of the things that I love about what you talked about duck price for was about how the, we measure GDP, and we do not take into account so much that the measurements are way off how and I love that if we were to take if we were to rearrange our rearrange what we measure that would account for taking care of our humanity and raising our children taking care of our planet, doing the volunteerism and have that, that that would very quickly give us an entirely different measure,
Dr. Eisler 09:51
completely studies a recent Australian study of the economic value now And then, you know, let’s talk in those terms of the work done for free, the household of caring for people, including children. But if that were included, it would constitute 50% 50% reported by Australian GDP. But as I said, GDP follows the same very limited approach of both Marx and Smith, even though both actually challenged some elements of what I call domination, economics, because it goes way back, it isn’t just neoliberalism, which is really a replay or trickle down economics, you know, it’s sort of a replay of this futile idea that goes on bottom, should content themselves with the scraps, right, dropping from the opulent tables of clothes on top, to Chinese emperors, into passions and to sheiks and to it really. Yes, I mean, it’s deeply rooted. And it is domination, economics, that we really are addressing this idea of top down, trickle down. Exactly, because
we’re seeing that we’re seeing that so much aren’t we try?
Yes. Gosh, I was just watching the news before we got onto this podcast. And they were talking about the huge palace that has been built off the books for Putin, hundreds of some odd 1000 square feet, just incredible place and underground, hockey, you know, field and, and so forth. And it’s speaks to exactly what you’re talking about. Dr. Islur?
Dr. Eisler 12:04
Oh, absolutely. Then, of course, I mean, I remember when I was invited to by Nordic women for peace, to miss them on a march to unlearning God. And they had previously done a peace march on Washington, DC. And the class structure was so clear, you know, ordinary Soviets had to stand in line for toothbrushes, I mean, for soap. But we were served caviar. And we were in a very fancy hotel. In the four years of our suite was a grand piano. It was like what is following the same domination, economic. But it’s interesting. And that really takes me to the configuration of the partnership of domination system. We recognize something that is inherent to the analysis of the systems, or systems analysis of the partnership, domination, social scale, because it’s always a better a good way. Nice the connection between what happens in childhood, between gender between family, and what happens in the state or tribe, so that he, a couple of years ago, radically reduce the penalties for family violence. Oh, I always recognize it. If you look at the Taliban, which is religious, and Eastern, or if you look at ISIS, the same thing or for men is Iran. Or if you look at Hitler’s backseat Germany, work for that matter Salus, former Soviet Union, they were always into strengthening or maintaining the kind of family but it is one of the real foundations are a highly punitive, rigidly male dominated authoritarian. It’s simple once you start looking for it, but we have, especially those of us who aren’t good educated in higher education, right. We’ve been taught, I mean, how I remember one day, sort of waking up, is it from, from what I today call the domination trends, and realizing that in all my years of so called Higher Education, there has hardly been anything by about or for people like me, women, such as for children, where we’ve been somewhere buried in so Domestic course or some family relations course is beginning to change the little bit. But not that much we were taught that the majority of humanity and anything pertaining to it to women and children, is not really important enough to be included in what we are taught is important knowledge and tools.
Were very, this, this is part of our mission. Because we believe we, we understand that we cannot, that this is not sustainable. We know that and so as we are in search for the new compassionate male, we are in search of that within ourselves, then both of us are in a journey of our own awakening through our own conscious and unconscious biases. Because from from our standpoint, from a we know that this is not working clay, you talked about that, that we men, the roles that we are assigned are very, all very often completely at odds with who we think we are, yet we we have to fit into some stereotype to be able to do it. You were talking so much about about trusting men clay, yes, as a Marine, Dr. Islur he was a Marine and went through all of the all of the the high, high concept male archetypes that that you would you would consider coming through this process.
You know, thanks, Dennis. There are many things that I learned. You know, one was that leadership is about servant leadership, even on the core. And there’s an undercurrent of compassion. And I didn’t have a name for it until out after I was out of the core, and began to look back and realize how even in situations like that, even in harm’s way that men taking care of men range taking care of Marines. John 1513, Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend. That’s all compassion. And what genocide are the past couple of years? We believe that there’s an undercurrent, it’s men, compassionate man out there. And I would like to believe that that that momentum is growing, is rising. And I don’t see it out there on the news or anything, but when I’m talking with men and white men circle and so forth. It’s there. And, you know, my hope is that it’s able to really surface.
Dr. Eisler 18:07
and this can only surface if enough of us including men, like you and Dennis, that help men to give up the sport domination. Yes, real masculinity of not being like a woman. Because as long as we have the stereotype, that being like a woman is to be compassionate to be caring to be really gone violent. When you have this this problem that men face, I think that we are at a time when this very rigidly binary stereotype stereotypical which is necessary for domination systems because yes, later, but if you don’t have these rigid stereotypes, how can you rank code masculinity? Over femininity? Yes, men over women. But this said, Men, Judo here we’re talking about with thinks nothing of sending his, you know, his his soldiers to be killed. I mean, for millenia. Men in Domination systems that had to give nothing less than their lives because some guy on top like Putin wanted more in real estate.
Yes. Young men fighting old men’s wars. Yeah. You know, the one thing that came up on a podcast just last year, we were talking about in terms of solar and lunar energy, and it was Howard Tyson. He said, you know, play Think about it this way, you know, we all have this energy, we all have the solar and the lunar, we all have the male and the female aspects to ourselves. Think about it like this. The lunar leads in the solar executes. And I thought to myself, no, wait a second. But then I thought back and back to the core. This is where leadership comes from. And so if we men are out there, thinking we can leave just from the head, cut off it and not acknowledge the essence of who we totally are, then we’re really making a big mistake. And so to me, it’s this integration of head and art, it’s not one or the other. It’s the integration that that is a must.
Dr. Eisler 20:52
Well, I think that this is a good starting point. Because you are of course, still talking about domination archetypes here. The veil is equated with reason, I think of how reasonable our leaders Thank you for saying that. I so appreciate you saying that, please. It’s no young does this use was a mess when it came to gender stereotypes. I mean, his UNIMIN analysts? Yes. I’m the mus is active is Bula, you know, protagonist, and what is the Anima? It’s either man’s inspiration or nemesis. Right? Completely relational. And the truth is that we’re all relational to each other. And then one of the problems that men in Domination systems have had is that their models for masculinity have been that you have to excel you have to accomplish, you have to, and really, you know, I hear people talking about the problem is ego ism. And I have to laugh because women weren’t supposed to have an ego.
Oh, not the women. I know. I know, some pretty powerful women that goodness.
Dr. Eisler 22:23
Now you do. But you know, the old stereotype women were not protagonist.
How did you how did you as a young teen, as powerful as you are doctor as I mean, I because I feel it your your, your intellect, and your heart and your drive and is so strong? How did you as a as a teenager, and how did you react to the world? How did that? How did that what was that experience like?
Dr. Eisler 23:00
This night? No transformation is possible because I have, I have experienced, okay, I was kind of a mess as a teen. I mean, I wanted desperately to belong, because I’ve, I’ve been an outsider all my life. And, you know, I was obviously cast out from as an outsider. Before I was born, I was an outsider growing up in the industrial slums of nirvana. I was an outsider here in the United States. When I came, I even pledged a sorority, which I then disaffiliated from, but I had no gender consciousness. I mean, I, I have to tell you, and that lasted into my 30s. Okay. I when I graduated UCLA law school, I was looking for a part time job with a entertainment law firm. That’s where my head was. It wasn’t, by the way. I mean, what it’s about is massaging people’s egos and counting, helping them count their money, or increase their money, but the head of the firm called me in one day to compliment me on some work I had done. And you know what he said to me, and he meant it as a compliment. But what’s much worse is I took it as a compliment. You don’t even great job to don’t think like a woman. And I took it as a compliment. But this is the kind of thinking of being socialized, you bet. And so it wasn’t really until I sort of woke up. List domination trends My 30s that went along with 1000s of other women.
Yes, yeah. And What years were these?
Dr. Eisler 25:10
What years were about the 60s, the 60. So this was during Exactly. So this, this was when we first began in the Women’s Liberation Movement here in the United States when it wouldn’t when it was, I mean, it had begun. And of course, it was earlier than that. But when we began to get some momentum and going toward that, and getting the era started to started to be passed,
Dr. Eisler 25:34
well, and I wrote the only last paper where on the proposed Equal Rights Amendment, it’s called the equal rights handbook was published by A, but it’s still available online. And unfortunately, it’s still relevant. But I really want to return now to the the intimate partnership aspects of my life, please, my second word for the love of my life. My husband, David Loy. We’re together for 45 years, and who recently died, and I will be left without him. But he was a caring man that he worked with me on the equal rights handled this way to Africa, to the Robie conference UN Conference on Women in writing a deep dive. And caring is not a human characteristic for goodness sake. And the fact that it’s been so, so suppressed in our culture, especially in men, but also in some women, we all know that no caring men and we know women who are not caring. And we know that people who are stuck in these gender stereotypes. And by the way, the study that I cite, in nurturing our humanity is very interesting. People who voted for Trump, the US election, one thing they had in common was not economic hardship. I mean, that was okay. But two things were the very interesting around which fit was the configuration, which I really have to tell you about at this summit. was one thing was a horror of women who stepped outside the domination stereotype of femininity. In other words, people like Hillary Clinton, people, you know, women who were assertive. Yes. But the other thing, which is fascinating, and it’s so much with the configuration of the combination of partnership systems, is that in times in terms of what they were trying to teach their children and help their children realize, wasn’t curiosity wasn’t empathy. It was really more obedience, conformity. And of course, it makes sense, doesn’t it? And women have become many women. I mean, look at 70 million people voted for Mr. Trump. Yes, many of them were female. They have internalized this, which takes me to the configuration which I do want to share at some point, because
I want to I know that it broke my heart, Doctor eyes or when because I, I had I believed that Hillary Clinton was going to be that every every woman would secretly who was who was outwardly Republican would secretly go into the, into the ballot box and, and it was the it was the 20th anniversary of my what my wife and I that night, November the eighth, and we and we had our celebration all set, and my heart was broken. I mean, I couldn’t believe that women would not stand up. And then I said, I must, I must not have this right. There must be there. There’s something I’m missing.
Dr. Eisler 29:40
Well, I think that it just shows that what we’re talking about is not an issue of women against men or men against women. It really is an issue of changing the underlying worldview. And was it our economic system Family Systems, you know, I’ve mentioned already, I mean, the trend towards for example, authoritative, non violent rather than authoritarian and violent parent thing is very important partnership trends. The trend towards non binary, flexible, fluid gender roles. That’s the trend. We have to recognize this. And it’s very hard for people because if you look at the modern social movements, they’ve altered actually, the progressive social movements have all challenged the same thing, a tradition of domination, you know, whether it is a movement against the so called divinely ordained, right of kings to or of men, divinely ordained, right? Again, men to rule over women and children are of a quote superior divinely ordained that your your superior is to rule over inferior was all the way to the environmental movement. Challenging are ones hallowed conquest, and domination of nature. But they focus on trying to dismantle the top of the combination of politics and economics is conventional. And pretty much a secondary to women’s movements with children’s rights, movement, spirituality, movement, etc. All of which are there, you know, the foundations, and they were domination systems that kept rebuilding themselves, like in Russia, that authoritarian, punitive, rigidly male dominated family is still the ideal No. Really change
where you are going to talk doctor about the configuration in the reconfiguration? Could you bring that to us?
Dr. Eisler 32:05
I’d like to do that. Because as Einstein said, we cannot solve problems with the same consciousness that created Thank you. And language is a very, very important that linguistic psychologists have long told us that the categories provided by a language. And this is particularly true of social categories. They channel our thinking. So it’s almost impossible to see a culture. So if you look at the conventional categories, for one thing, is kind of silly, that people don’t seem to notice when they start arguing about religious versus secular, Eastern versus Western or capitalist versus socialist, that there have been repressive violence regressive cultures in all these categories, and continue to be and they also don’t notice that these categories either marginalize or ignore or say they should be subservient, nothing less than the majority of humanity, women and children. Yes, now, we cannot have whole systems change, without taking into account these foundational relations, which Neuroscience tells us that what children observe or experience in their early years, shapes, nothing less than the architecture of art. So I’m proposing that we need to change our language about societies and start talking about shifting our cultures not from capitalism to socialism or from socialism to capitalism or not left to right or from right to left or whatever. But of shifting from domination to partnership, and there are four core components of these systems of figuration. One is a top down also rich area, structure in both the family and the state or tribe, the economics, etc. Okay. The second part of the figuration is something that is marginalized or ignored gender relations, and this is where you both come in, because we domination oriented societies invariably rank one form of humanity. male form over the female. Yes, and that is a template for you. equating difference beginning with this fundamental difference in form in our species with either superiority or inferiority, dominating or being dominated, being served or serving. So it’s a template for indoor versus outdoor thinking and you move to the partnership side, and you can see it in much of our prehistory. I wrote extensively about that in many of my blocks, because the evidence is overwhelming that for most of our human cultural evolution for 1000s of years, we oriented more to the partnership side and that the domination system shift occurred in the mainstream of culture will be about 5000 years ago,
yes, with the with the creation of private property with a concept.
Dr. Eisler 36:04
Not necessarily there are many, many theories about certainly technology, including agriculture. So, they turn towards the domination side, at a certain point, but the early agrarian societies, like shfm, Jolla, for example, in Turkey, in the plains of Turkey, which is the largest Neolithic site ever excavated, was more egalitarian, by the size of the houses by the types of grave was more gender balance. Ian Hodder with the archaeologists, who excavated most recently there has an article in Scientific American about really being born male or female, did not affect your status in life. And of course, there are no signs of distractions through warfare, or over a spy was yours.
Help me Dr. Eisler. What What was the timeframe that he was excavating? What what timeframe in the history was
Dr. Eisler 37:26
about? From about? I think about 6000. Before the Common Era, okay. Onward. But these were very early farming settlements. This was a huge town in the back exactly.
The way it was. It was a it was an amazing economy, wasn’t it? I mean, it was very.
Dr. Eisler 37:51
It was an amazing economy. I mean, we’ve been told so many false stories, stories that work, this notion that there are only two possibilities for us, we either dominate or were dominated. Think of the categories that are gender specific. matriarchy, patriarchy. I mean, yeah. Either women rule or men rule. The fathers or mothers. There is no partnership alternative.
Is there any word for it? Well,
Dr. Eisler 38:24
I coined the word guy, let me say it again. Di Lundy, Dinah, for a woman under a strong man and L in English for linking. wonder, why don’t you go back to me reading the chalice and the blade let me continue with the configuration because the amount of abuse and violence is very, very different in the Domination and the partnership system and to actually see the art changing radically. I mean, art is a symbolic language, you know? And if you It’s fascinating but if you really leave behind you know the conventional thinking of the linear evolution No. Evolution like everything else wasn’t even there. But anyway, domination systems require a high degree of abuse and violence all the way the wife and child breeding grounds, lynchings warfare, to maintain themselves because how else you maintain these rankings with men over man man or woman, race, civil race, religion, religion, etc. Partnership side yeah, there is some violence people lose it sometimes. But it isn’t built into this. And that makes a huge difference and of course, the forest part store Are we are we I mean, we’ve inherited the story that well, whether it’s selfish genes or original sin, the same story is that, yes, they fight each other. But with simply the same story, we’re bad, we have to be controlled.
So I’m just testing my understanding, you’re talking about the four being the family in childhood relations,
Dr. Eisler 40:34
then I’m talking about structure, structure. And I’m making the, the connection immediately between the structure in the family and the structure in this later drive. And I can give you a contemporary example, the countries that today ranked highest in the happiness reports, as well as very high in the world. Economic Forum’s Global Competitiveness reports, etc, are nations that have moved more to the partnership side are the European nations like Norway, Finland, Sweden. And they have, I mean, let’s look at the partnership structure here for a moment, because it’s not only in the family, but also in the Slater tribe. That is where democratic, they’re not socialists, they have more caring policies, because of the second component, because the status of women has risen, so that half approximately, of their national legislature is female. And as the Status of Women rises, men will no longer feel that this is an integral connection between changing male masculine stereotypes, and the devaluation, the hidden system of gendered values that we’ve been living with, and are trying to leave behind. Because as the Status of Women rises, men no longer feel it’s such a threat to their identities, to their status to their masculinity, to also embrace caring policies. So these nations at universal health care, very good quality, childcare, accessible, well paid, government supported. They have very generous paid parental leave for both mothers and fathers. And that’s precisely why we have such a successful business sector. You know, I, it makes me wonder, where, where’s the what flips the switch? What would cause them to begin to make this change? There’s many theories about it. One is the agriculture theory. And private property, which I certainly in some places, maybe it happened that way. But in Europe, in the area surrounding the Mediterranean, there is mounting evidence, including DNA studies showing that it was through armed invasion from the fringe areas of our globe, where as a matter of fact, the shift from gathering hunting was not to agriculture with to birdie. And herding, as we know from problem with cattle today is not a sustainable way of really, technologically speaking, it’s a lousy technology, because it depletes without giving back. But in these societies, for a number of reasons, and I deal with that in some detail, in my book sake with pleasure, which is kind of a heresies with it, there’s a message behind that. Well, you have it, of course I have it. Like you remember, I mean, like the bonobos, which are one, you know, one, one chapter in there. Yes. Our closest primate relatives, in difference is the common Chimp, but they’re much more partnership oriented and they share leisure. Yes, food, they share sex. I mean, it’s a completely different social organization. And we have that capacity As shown by these millennia. So we have to change our stories
are when you look at your grandchildren, Dr. Eisler for do you have? Does this bring you hope? Do you see a difference in their consciousness? And and what is going on with them? What what is your sense about what’s going on in the, in the race mind consciousness of humanity as you look out through the eyes of your grandchildren?
Dr. Eisler 45:33
Well, I think my grandchildren are very aware of them, that we need new thinking. I mean, they’re looking for it. But it’s really interesting because, you know, I used to be even I still occasionally still do, or give a lot of keynotes to major conferences. Yes. And people buy into this, when they hear me, pulled back by the culture. So it’s our job. And really, we owe it to our children and generations to come to start using the terms, partnership system domination. Because if we don’t, people will say, Well, what do you mean by that? Or what do you mean by a caring economics of partners? People will ask, but it’s up to the, to those of us who are agents of cultural change like you to, to start using different tools, and to start helping people to see connections that are made invisible by the domination chance.
I’m so glad to hear you say that because one of my quests in this life is to ask people and to really understand what is enough? Have you set that number by will ask a person have you set a number that you would know at least when you hit it when some economic or or or other marker would be hit you ago? Okay. Yeah, I’ve got it I’ve got because I don’t hear it being asked, and I don’t. And that’s just the mindset.
Dr. Eisler 47:24
Well, you know, in nurturing our humanity, there are studies showing that in societies where there is a lot of accumulation of the top, which by the way, domination economics creates artificial scarcity. I siphoning resources to top five cleaning services into Parliament’s weapons wars, and also by failing to invest in caring for people starting at service. I mean, children, especially for our post industrial knowledge, service economy, our most important assets for goodness sakes,
I love that doctor because when, when we talk, when I talk to friends of mine who describe themselves as conservative, I go, What a great word to conserve you, you don’t drive your car and never take it into the into the mechanic and put oil and take care of it. We take care. What is this wonderful word conservative? Why don’t what our what are we going to conserve and nurture and support?
Dr. Eisler 48:35
Well, but for the, quote, conservative mind, and there are studies in virtually our humanity showing that actually are very structure of our brains. People who consider themselves very conservative, have very rigid brains based on denial. And it’s related to the development of part of the brain that is not as well developed, as in people who are less quote, conservative, conservative and liberal, are pointless words for me. Just make us fight each other. Dr. Islur. While you’re talking about the brain, you made the point in a recent podcast that the pleasure centers light up in our brain when we care and share more than more than when we dominate. So so when I go win the football game, and I’m spiking, the football app feels great. But test not as great as feeling that I would my pleasure centers would light up when I’m caring and sharing is that that is EPS salutely True. And you know, many studies have shown that people are happier when they give. That’s what makes us feel good. But, but this empathy, this hearing has to be either suppressed or compartmentalized. So it only applies to the in group. In Domination systems, whether that in group, right, it’s the in group of code mankind, female, other or divided states, whether it’s whites versus blacks in the Middle East, whether it’s Shia versus Sunni, or Sunni versus Shia, it doesn’t really matter. And other rising, right. Yeah. Other right. And that’s really with that very basic model. Yeah. It’s not coincidental what I spoke about earlier, the correlation between wanting to either maintain or impose this is the punitive widget vo dominated authoritarian family, and what kind of regime?
Dennis, remember when we talked with Dr. Doty the other week, and one of the key points that was made was that compassion, empathy and compassion is, is innate, it’s part of our DNA, and it’s got to be nurtured. It has to be nurtured. And that’s, of course, the whole point of I mean, if there is a central point, and there are many points in nurturing our humanity, it is that it isn’t a question of genes. This is a question of gene expression. And that happens to action with our environment, especially in the first years, we can change. I mean, people can do did
a good doctor, I mean, you look at your evolution.
Dr. Eisler 52:06
I had a whole evolution. And David was really part of that evolution. And part of my journey. I can I can honestly say that, on a personal level partnership is just so wonderful is so pleasure.
Doctor, thank you for sharing David with us and bring him along in this. It’s very, he’s very palpable to me just in how you how you have shared how he is part of you today. And as as strong as as he is sitting right, sitting right within you.
Dr. Eisler 52:49
Well, they did some very important work. Because he wrote me tons of poetry, which I think is very good. I published a book called 100 days of love, this 100 days that we were together for a day. Oh, that’s another story. But he wrote he thought it was a pioneer in retelling the story of Darwin’s evolution, because at Davis word, Darwin has been used by the domination system is this 800 pound gorilla, to say, hey, what matters is, you know, the survival of the fittest was the fittest defined as the meanest right? And in his book on human evolution, Descent of Man, Darwin explicitly said, at the level of human evolution, random selection, and all these other mechanisms may fade in importance. What is important now is culture and love. He wrote so many times about love, and he actually apologized that for using the term survival of the fittest, which wasn’t history, it was a term. But anyway, so I highly recommend David’s book, Darwin’s last theory,
Doctor, thank you so much for giving us this opportunity just to spend some time with you. And to know the I guess, before I want to go if you if you could just tell me some of the VISTAs some of the things that curiosities that you’re going to be exploring in the near future,
Dr. Eisler 54:39
and I will continue to do my teaching. And by the way, on a center for partnership.org you can find a way to really take a self paced course called Changing our story, changing our lives and up Do it for groups and then you get to own the for videos and to use them yourself in your presentations as well as all of the resources on my list that I am now working on giving background to David’s extensive poetry in a book that I calling tentatively called for what was the title of one of his times, which is yet love remains.
God is how precious thank you for giving us this time today for spending your time here on this planet with us what we do, clay has Shepard this over 100 podcasts and when he said that we were going to have you it was like this was the ice this was the cherry on the ice cream sundae of our of our time to be able to be able to spend time with you and the grace that you brought to us and that you brought to the planet Dr. Eyes for thank you so much for your time.
Dr. Eisler 56:04
Thank you goes with a very very good for being you.
Thank you world and thank you everyone and we will see you next time on in search of the new compassionate mayor.
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