Connie Baxter Marlow & Andrew Cameron Bailey are original thinkers, writers, photographers, filmmakers, futurists, climate “solutionaries” and inspirational public speakers. Their explorations into the essence of Reality have led to a unique articulation of the conscious, loving, abundant nature of the Universe. In their book The Trust Frequency:Ten Assumptions for a New Paradigm.Connie and Andrew present a system of cosmological axioms, informed by indigenous cosmology, quantum science and Eastern and Western mysticism, which resolve key paradoxes that have kept humanity from walking in balance with Universal Law and with an open heart. They offer straightforward, practical tools for accessing The Trust Frequency, an alternative reality where the soul’s destiny awaits, the laws are expanded, and there is more balance, beauty, joy and abundance than we can fathom.
They have presented their work at IONS, SAND, COSM, ISSSEEM, Unity Village Chapel, New Dimensions Radio, Eagle Quetzal Condor Global Convergence, Consciousness of Immortality Conference, The Thoreau Society, Parliament of the World’s Religions, World Unity Week 2020/2021 and numerous other venues.
And Henry David Thoreau says in his conclusion to Walden when one walks competently in the direction of his dreams, you will pass a certain boundary. He will experience a success unexpected in common hours. The laws that apply to him will be expanded, or new laws will be made in his favor, and he will live with the license of a higher order of beings. This is a key quote for understanding it’s a different ballgame. There’s new laws
Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. My name is Clay Boykin, I support this podcast through my coaching practice. I help people visualize and harmonize find direction and meaning or simply get unstuck. Contact me at Clay Boykin calm for a free consultation. Now here’s the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male.
Hello World. It’s me Dennis and we are in search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this particular podcast and I’m here with the founder of insert to the new compassionate male clay Boykin Hi Clay.
Hi, Dennis. This is a very special day. Today we have Connie Baxter Marlow, and Andrew Cameron Bailey with us. And oh, right, yes, they have a wonderful background, we’re going to talk overarching conversation is going to be on the trust frequency. And I’ve always wondered, Is it possible to change our mind? You know, is it possible to think differently, and I think we’re going to speak about some of that today. So welcome, Connie, and welcome, Andrew.
Oh, so glad to have you all here. You know, I, one of the things when I began my my study of quantum physics, and from an amateur level, but I began to be curious about quantum consciousness about what that might be like, because what we what I would, what I pay attention to grows and how that works, and how that might relate. And then when I heard one of your YouTubes, and when I heard you talking about that, I was very excited about how this might work. Because we all exhibit a free of field, a frequency, and then how that works together. So it’s, it’s exciting for me to be able to, to hear from you and hear from what your research and your studies and your practicality has been. Well, it’s great to be here. We’re thrilled to be talking about the trust frequency, and our book, the trust frequency 10 assumptions for a new paradigm. Yeah, talk about changing your mind, change your assumptions, and the world changes with you. I was gonna say that.
Exactly. So you guys are so much speaking our language in so many ways that I’m expecting you to say things. And you do but they’re subtly different, such as, when Connie and I got together in 2003, one of the first things we did was we went to Africa, and got together with the Bushmen of the Kalahari, those amazing little people from that film, The Gods Must Be Crazy. Oh, gosh, and made this movie and the title of the movie is in search of the future. What do the wise one wise ones No, but in search of a search of something, so you can search as a compassionate male in search of the future. It has been said that humanity is about to undergo a major transformation, a major paradigm shift or a quantum leap in consciousness. And looking around and reading the news, I think that’s a very good idea. And so our technique for seeking the future was to go to the world’s oldest people, and sit down with the oldest members of those communities. And ask him these questions. We didn’t even have language in common. And it’s a beautiful film in search of the future.
And we come in contact with so many visionary elders prior to that, that we went to our friends, because I saw through the visionary elders who came into my life when I was seeking the missing pieces of the paradigm, because I felt that our paradigm was out of balance that it had holes in it. It couldn’t explain paranormal, it couldn’t explain things. I’m like, I’m not basing my life on a paradigm that can explain things. So I went in seeking the missing pieces. And what happened was, I went to Europe looking for them and all I saw was the same kind of thinking and then visionary elders. started coming into my life Native American elders. And I saw through them an expanded paradigm, a conscious loving universe. So this film came out of that. And Andrew had spent extensive time with elders and various Native people, and especially the Bushmen.
I think you have to if you’re going to go in search of human consciousness, you need to do the best you can to find the wise ones, as we call them, capital W, capital, wise ones who otherwise ones, where do you find them? And what do they say, and, and listen, and listen, and listen, and put it to practice in your personal life,
Heading out with the In Search of the such powerful way to go about it. For us, it’s been, for me, when that came up was, you know, I’m not the expert, I’m not going to go out there and tell everybody who the compassionate male is. I’m in search of. And it’s so much the same for you. It’s, it’s a seeking, and it’s inviting for people to come in. And, and to join you in that search. So that’s wonderful.
And it’s a searching without, and within, yes, has to be both. It has to be bi directional, omnidirectional. Or I’m missing things. And that’s what I love about because that’s what I love about the your practice. And especially being out I’m 74. So I’m getting a chance to, to experience the elderhood experience this this time in my life and to learn that, boy, that sales pitch about aging is all wrong. I am having the time of my life. I’m learning more. I’m growing more. I’m more excited. I’m making more mistakes. I’m growing, I’m looking at I get to be here today with you.
And don’t tell clay but Life begins at 70.
He’s got he’s hanging in there, he’s just come on and listen to your elders.
Well, I just celebrated my 68th birthday, for the record.
And he’s getting it was my 78th. And it was funny 75th
Congratulations. Now you had when when we’re talking about the elder because there’s so much about what I’ve learned about about science and in, in, like, I look back, and when I read the Bible, and I look at the miracles, and it looks to me like he’s using that Jesus is using quantum principles. He’s using the principles of entanglement. And he’s using that. And so much of what we’re talking about with the elders is that we’re actually remembering, rather than discovering a new,
I would say Jesus was a Wayshower, into this frequency that we call the trust frequency, when our 10 assumptions for new paradigm bring people a construct on the nature of the universe, that takes us beyond duality. Okay, it’s a huge leap, to get your vibration level up to that level, beyond right and wrong, good and evil, that there’s only love. And what we say is we just don’t understand the nature of that love, which is unconditional. Which means it gives us everything we ask for. And then what are our requests? Well, our requests are our vibration. And we say it’s our consciousness, and we have seven aspects of our consciousness that determine our frequency and vibration, and thereby our reality. So that’s what we’re bringing to the table.
That’s wonderful. I got a question. Because when I hear the the title of the book, the trust frequency, when I think of trust, I think of my trust and another person. But you’re, you’re you’re using trust in a much bigger way. Can you talk about that?
Let me put it in four words, trust the loving universe. Okay, go there. It’s big. It’s big as it gets. Because there’s only love in this construct that we’re bringing forth.
This unconditional loving nature of the universe that loves us so much. It gives us everything we asked for. But what are our requests and what was our overarching act of free will. When we incarnated that gave the loving universe permission to take us on our journey to wholeness to put us through hell so put us on our journey to wholeness which is our journey to self love and self acceptance and alignment with our divinity. And our purpose. So it’s it’s huge. And this is the basis of our course, we have an online course called The dance of souls, that that applies these principles to our relationships. Because then we become the beneficiary as opposed to the victim, we get out of victim consciousness, we realize that we gave an overarching act of free will to go on this journey.
When when you set out to design a course, can you take us back to when it was just the germ of an idea when you were sitting together and saying, you know, we need to this might be make a course and how you went about this process of creation in the evolution into what it is today?
So very personal unconscious part. Yeah. Your relationship with your daughters? Yeah.
No, my daughter’s my father, my husband, my life journey. I saw that because the trust frequency I live in that place. So that this construct is my reality of absolute. Lee. Okay. No doubt, I have no doubt. Okay. So I mean, that’s the Achilles heel to getting to this frequency. So I saw through three generations of behaviors, that there was a pattern in my life, not me blaming them. But I had work to do. And that’s what this course is about. It’s about going inside and seeing the work we have to do to come to self love to accept those parts of ourselves. We don’t love Yeah. So I that this course just came about like, Okay, we don’t want to do a trust whole big trust frequency course. So let’s do this little course, this applied applied trust frequency, to actually put it into effect.
Eyes, I observed this evolve in its present form, through you darling, with observing your daughter’s and that often tough relationship that they had. And then you wrote something about to each of them to say, look, look what’s going on here. See, that’s it your souls? It’s the dance of souls. That’s the way I remember it. Yeah, absolutely.
And, and, and I have been in our dance of souls, big time. I mean, we’re in their 70s. And we’ve both been very conscious for decades, and we’ve worked all the stuff out without previous partners. Those good folks we call our spice, which is a rule of spouse. Nice. And we thought we had the baggage fee.
I love that.
What I love about what I love about relationship is relationships teach me so much about me.
That was the purpose perhaps. Absolutely. And that’s with a capital A,
I love your concept of the universe, because I also find out that the universe, one of my teachers told me, he said the universe has only one answer to every question. And that’s yes. I’m small. I did everything so hard. I took a ticket. Yes. Oh, beautified? Anything, anything at acid, it’s loves me so much. It will give me whatever I asked. So then I have to, so it becomes it takes me out of my victimhood and says, I must ask a better question.
Wow. Well, there you are. Because if we’re asking the question, Am I a complete moron? What’s the answer? Yes.
Yes, because people will come into your life to show you what a moron you are. So think about your question because your soul actually magnetizes the behavior of others, actually creates the other behaving the others, so that we can see those moron parts that we feel are morons will actually even flip something they say, to take it in as them calling us a moron. It is. It is amazing, because I go ahead, Clay.
Okay. So I want to I want to try something here. So you’re talking about the universe saying yes. And in our present life in our relationships. And you said something earlier that triggered in me, generational healing, I think that’s what you were referring to. And so, like, right now, there’s four of us. All the generations behind us, are sitting with us, and are speaking through us. And so that generational healing is One part of it, and then being able to show up with a knowing that the truth is, is that the universe loves us. And that’s how we show up with one another. There’s two, two big things we got to do there. Well, not only the universe loves us, but we are magnificent aspects of the Divine.
And daily by the door, here I am, all of me, not just the parts that I think you want to see, because then I’m a good girl, and I’m smart, and I get along, etc. But all the while underneath, I’m saying, Oh, she’s stupid. And she’s, you know, this is fake and everything we get, we have bring the whole of us that’s what our course is for is to bring people into loving all of themselves understanding that we came on this journey, and getting out of victim, right, and beneficiary. And beloved,
and would it be true to say that, when you when you talk about victim, my mind went to fear
You go. So fear is actually the opposite of trust. And they can really live in the same room. If you’re in trust, the fear goes away. And if you’re in fear, the trust goes away, we’ll see you might as well make a choice of, you know, in the direction of trust, right.
And one of the things I want to ask you about because I want to go back to this word doubt that you were talking about because I have I am because I am I, I don’t like being this way, but I am at times a binary thinker that I can think of okay, what what is how can I be doubt less? And and so what I tried to think of it, and it would this work on a continuum, that that it is either full trust or doubt, but I can be somewhere on the continuum that I can move toward trust. Can you help me with that?
Well, change your assumptions, please help the world change radically. That’s exactly what I’m asking you to do. So our construct and we’re just saying this as a construct on the nature of the universe, we’re not saying it’s absolutely true, we’re saying take it as absolutely true, and see what happens, just see what happens. And then your mind can align with your heart. And you can act from that place. Because you have one has a construct on the nature of the universe that goes beyond duality. And it’s a practice. So along that, thank you. That’s it. So this is when in the recovery movement, when they talk about act as if this, this is this as
well, and in what I’ve come to realize is how much of my life I spent disaster planning. You know, well, what if this doesn’t work? What if this doesn’t happen? Anticipating failure? So I’m bringing failure
you’re creating, because our minds are unbelievably powerful? And if we put our attention on failure, guess what? Right? Yes, we’re not gonna make it.
And Andrew raised his kids. He taught them don’t have a fallback position,
Or you going to fall back? So what is it you want to do? Oh, you want to be a rock star? You want to make your living doing your music do that? Same and people will say no, no, but get a degree in accounting, just in case that doesn’t work out? Nope.
Right. Well, and and to add to that, you know, I found that I wasn’t prepared for success, because I was planning for failure.
You put your focus on failure, right? And what if, and all of those fear based connotations that we indulge in, and the more time and energy we put dead on more powerful Cisely than that. So it’s really about what we believe it’s about our worldview. It’s about our fundamental assumptions, those aspects of reality that we have no doubts of back to the doubt word. And assumption is something that we believe to be true without question. They say if my fundamental assumption is I’m not good enough, because my dad’s smack me when I was three years old, and I had my hand on the cookie jar. And he said, You’re a little shit. I guess I can say that. I’m absolutely right. And I put that deep in my soul. And now I am 60 years old, and I’m still behaving from that wound that I received back then because I have this really deep, hidden subterranean assumption that I’m not good enough. I’m a little ship. Yep. Connie asked my mom, my beloved beautiful mom and my mom was about 90. In South Africa. She said, What was Andrew like, as a little boy? What did she say? He was a little devil. And can you imagine that my parents abstained from telling me that. So I was programmed as a little boy, when I was a little devil, that means bad, I think. I mean, sure, you could, you could make a career of that.
But that was his course. And this understanding he has he incarnated to those parents is so as to his parents to say that he took on that wound, because he came in feeling like a little devil, he wasn’t good enough. So he had to. It’s a whole lifetime process of freewill, and a conscious loving universe, taking us on this journey to wholeness and self love and self acceptance,
Which is what your course is all about. Yeah, yeah. And the cross is very specifically about relationships. So this relationship here a marriage, yes, man woman relationship is one of the types of relationships that we as humans, we all have either relationship with myself, Yes, ultimately, only one relationship. And that’s my relationship with the universe. Except there’s no such thing. There’s no separation, that implies that I am separate from the universe, actually, the only relationship there is, is the relationship of the universe with itself. And each of its countless manifestations of which we are each one. But this one is specifically to do with human relationships, whether it’s a partner, a lover, a child, a parent, a boss, universe, circumstance, but the universe is taking it to that to that highest level, the course is very practical. It’s very grounding or grounded. I would say that it’s extremely useful to anybody in the psychotherapeutic or counseling world, marriage counseling, just to take an example
On either side of it right on either whether you are whether you are you are a therapist, or whether or not you are you are a someone who is seeking counseling. Well think of think of a therapist who has this in his or her toolbox. He has a technique. Hey, Fred, Hey, Sally, look at you. You’re yelling at each other. You used to be madly in love with each other. And now you’re thinking about getting a divorce? What’s going on? And what if Sally is riff holding up a mirror to you, Fred? And, Sally, what if Fred’s holding up a mirror to you and you were attracted to each other for this very specific work? It’s not easy. It’s off. Sometimes it’s not fun. But it’s the work we came here to do, to know, to grow spiritually, to grow emotionally, to develop things like emotional intelligence, and to get real and real. By the time we’re real, we’ve lost a judgment about what’s bad, what’s good. What’s, you know, it’s like the Rumi quote, will not feel beyond right doing and wrong. Going to the point where everything that happens in my life, Clay, you walk in my front door, and you start cursing me out. And my immediate thought is, I’m going to start cursing right back at you. What if I could actually be wise enough to say, thank you, man. By the way, did you know how handsome you are? I just I just saw your beauty for the first time. And I saw it. You had this like angry look on your face. But I think practicing gratitude and I’m actually getting a little better at it. And I can you can you really challenged me and thank you, man. I didn’t know I had to go there.
And that’s your ability to show up wholehearted?
No hard dog. Not on easy.
Working this one, because the trigger is a trigger is our son that it’s our work to do. So the trigger is huge. So in that instance, he didn’t trigger into reaction. He just went Oh, hey, Clay, you’re looking great today. How are you welcome. You know, instead of triggering into defense and triggering into making you bad and wrong, you know, that whole dance
and what you’re talking about is being able to separate a fraction of a millisecond of the body fight or flight response. And actually come at it at a higher consciousness level,
from a higher from a higher frequency, higher frequency, right. So we have the ability to operate, anywhere, there’s a sliding scale all the way from infinitely high to infinitely low, we can be in our darkest hell of our choice, we have that freedom, we actually have the absolute freedom to be as miserable as we can imagine, we have that freedom, and to be as joyful as we can imagine. And it’s a practice to, when I’m not functioning the way I’d like to when I’m not putting out into the world of beauty and the love that’s in my heart that’s hiding here, because I’m afraid to do so maybe I was rejected at some point, and then through practice through, so there’s a certain amount of sort of intellectual understanding, that’s helpful. That’s where our book is useful. These 10 assumptions for a new paradigm, we just flipped 10, there was something called the 10 commandments. And he said, Well, how about the 10? Assumptions? Perfect. Like, I asked this question. When was the last time somebody walked up to you on the street a stranger and said, Excuse me? What are your 10? most fundamental beliefs? We don’t do that in this culture. We don’t do that. Do we? As as I can’t? I don’t know a culture that does. I don’t think that Tibetan Buddhists do that. I don’t know. So what if we could identify 10? Assumptions, current assumptions that are pretty foundational to most people in most cultures, and then flip them on the other side? I’m a science guy. So I was raised to believe that the universe is this big mechanical clockwork machine. It doesn’t even know I exist. What’s the total opposite of that? conscious, loving universe? Which totally, I’m, I’m not just it doesn’t just love me, because that implies separation. I am it. It’s me. I am a manifestation of the universe. And therefore I am that love and I am so loved. It’s almost like being in the womb of my mother. Life. I’m so protected. I’m so supportive. I’m so loved. How different is that from thinking of the universe as a mechanical thing that doesn’t exist?
Mm. You know, you know, yeah, it is now. Can you? Can you give us an idea of like, what, what one of these assumptions is give us a peek inside here.
We could run down the whole town without too much trouble.
Well, we’ve spoken of, there’s only love. That’s assumption number one. We live in a conscious loving universe, there is only love.
On a quantum level. It’s consistent tirely of love. So we’re not talking about holding hands here. We’re talking about the primordial energy, that creative energy that has resulted in this glorious universe that we’re about to energy, his love for the oil. Exactly. There’s nothing else there is nothing else at all.
I will say that but what about the stuff that we see as not love? See, we resolve that paradigm. So next one, but go on go on, Dennis.
No, I want you to go on.
So the second assumption is the universe loves us unconditionally. It gives us everything we asked for. And then the third assumption is we create reality by the power of our consciousness. And then the fourth assumption is the seven aspects of our consciousness that begin with a that are our requests to the conscious loving universe, they create our vibration. Okay, so what are the seven aspects of our consciousness? Awareness? Uh, huh. Assumptions, assumptions, attention, attitude, attitude, alignment, action, and allow allowing, stepping back and trusting the universe that God got our back. So I can say those seven aspects in one sentence.
Please do, please.
There’s the first four assumptions and the fourth one is more of a, an invitation to understand consciousness by breaking it down into these seven attributes or aspects starting with you go to the dictionary, the only one in the dictionary is the word awareness. Here’s a sentence.
Okay, so the sentence that has all seven aspects of our consciousness that create our vibrational level and thereby our frequency and thereby our reality is this. With expanded awareness and accurate assumptions, we choose our attitude. Consciously direct our attention, align with our highest inner promptings take committed action and allow the loving universe to manifest beyond our wildest dreams.
So this is like a toolkit that you can sort of say, okay, awareness. Yeah, that’s an active. Am I awake? If I’m fast asleep, or I’m drugged out, I’m not aware? And what do we allow into our awareness? And then where am I putting my attention? And what am I assumptions on the subjects of where I’m putting my attention? If I’m watching the news, and my assumption is that we’re all screwed. You know, we’re probably in trouble. If I know that something is going on, that’s on a higher level that there’s only love therefore, these scary things we see on the TV, for example, somehow have to be part of the unfolding of the conscious loving universe. That’s not always easy to, to remember. But yeah, once we remember that, yeah,
For me, my core assumption of my knowing is, there is only the coming of peace on earth. Everything serves it ever has ever will. That’s all there is. So that’s my reality. So I asked, How does this serve the coming of peace? Honor? The answers you get depend on the questions you ask. So and those questions based on your assumptions, okay. So I get radically different answers from people who think we’re going to hell in a handbasket. And it’s all horrible and humanity’s digressing, etc, I get totally different answers.
Exactly. And I’m, it feels to me, and we’ve talked about this with some of the other scientists and psychologist and anthropologists that we’ve talked to on program about it feels to me, as if there is an a shift in consciousness in the same way that must have happened when when we went from the chimpanzee into the hominid. There, it feels like that we’re making a shift that there that there isn’t a shift in consciousness that is happening, something that there’s an impelling, an evolutionary, an evolutionary imperative that is happening right now. It feels like it’s something feels different.
So what’s different is we are conscious for the first time that we know of Barbara Marx Hubbard and her idea of conscious evolution, we are now aware that we are an evolving species, we ain’t done yet. We still got work to do. When I was swinging through the trees, and I flew down and jumped into my Ferrari and raced off across the prairie. I was not as conscious as I am. Now, I did know that that was a quantum leap in behavior. Yes, I shorten history a bit between everybody that’s an assumption were descended from the apes.
That’s part of that part of the assumption about how, because I assume that there is something other than the present moment. There isn’t. Right? That’s an that again, that’s an assumption.
That’s something. One of the assumptions that sets our assumption number seven, number seven. And that’s there is only now this precious present moment, there is only now there’s precious present moments, so pay attention. So that’s the gateway to the trust frequency. And that’s why we’re losing our memory. Okay, because if we can’t remember what we’re supposed to do tomorrow, and we can’t remember what we did yesterday, where are we? Also. So I saw this long ago, because I asked, okay, how is this going to happen? in a loving way, this shift in consciousness, which is a given for us? And my daughter was sitting at the kitchen counter, and I had asked us to the universe, right, my daughter’s sitting at the kitchen counter. This was 30 years ago. And she said, Mom, what would happen if everyone got amnesia? I’m like, Alley. That’s it. That’s how it’s going to happen. Okay, and then I started watching people having senior moments. etc, you know, and I’m like EA, and then the men and black came, you know, where they just went in zap, zap memories. And then a little girl came over to play with my other daughter one day. And she said, constant, you know what happened, I was right in the middle of a fight with my mother. And I forgot what I was mad about. And that told me that it had nothing to do with age. Okay, this is how I, this is how I get my information about the nature of the universe, okay. And when I get it like that, I know, it’s from the Divine, I resonate to it, I put it in my worldview. And that’s very, totally real. For me
The present moment, the more that I that I, I get to it, I know that when I’m sitting in meditation, and I really try to experience the present moment, and just that act of attempting to do, it shows me how much I’m away from the present moment, during the rest of my other activities. And so it’s an extraordinary work to do that, to be able to go into the practice of that.
But it’s helping because we’re losing our memory, right?
Think of the memories as as, as a 55 gallon drum, that the you know, it’s like it gets filled up at the top, and then everything else just spills over. spills over on the side. I got a question now. Yeah.
My perception is that you’re going to have to have the majority of the world thinking this way for change to happen. And how the monk, tell me about that,
You know, about the 100th. Monkey, vaguely? Well, then when the when the consciousness reaches a certain level, the whole thing shifts, when the 100th Monkey ships, the whole monkey Kingdom shifts.
So are you saying that it doesn’t take the majority of the world to get to this consciousness level for change to happen, it can happen with a much smaller population.
This is a subject that has actually been studied. And the idea seems to be emerging that it’s going to take about, it’s gonna take a bunch of pain, but about 6%.
That was significant number, but not 50%, not 70%, not 100%, a small enough butterfly to have that butterfly effect on the rest of us.
But one thing we have to realize, see, with quantum science and the observer effect, we have to realize our responsibility to the collective consciousness, that if we see it, we sense it, it is our responsibility to vibrate at that level, to keep it in mind to the best of our ability, because like you said, Dennis, it’s a process. But what if we realize it’s, it’s a responsibility, we have that we affect the collective consciousness, we are the loving universe, everything we see, we think we feel our emotions, in the same herramienta with unified physics is now proving that, you know, it has to do with the fact that the energy of the universe is in every cell of our body. So we’re feeding every cell, every emotion, every vibration feeds, of creation. And we actually say all of creation is awaiting love in the human heart, awaiting the opening of the human heart, that our work is actually transmuting fear separation and scarcity, but of creation.
That feels so good, because it feels so hopeful. Because it gives it also gives me my work to do. Because I get to be totally responsible, I get to contribute to the collective conscience, I got to raise my raise my awareness, raise my frequency in that so that I can help I mean, we I I’m very metaphorical. I’ll take a good metaphor and ride it until it’s in the ground and keep going with it. So So I think of our I think of myself as as getting an opportunity to be able to, to contribute into this into this raising of awareness that’s happening all over the world like the the internet is an artificial nodal net, that that connects the consciousnesses of people that is actually helping to be able to very quickly like someone, someone tomorrow as soon as clay gets this edited, can be in Mozambique, and can listen to this conversation. How long would that have taken to happen? 20 or 30 years ago?
Yeah, absolutely. So let’s inherent in what you were saying, Dennis, is that, because I think we agreed early on that, there’s only one thing we call it the universe, it’s the only thing there is, is nothing else that conscious loving, and you can describe it, you can use the descriptors and so on. But tell us this unique verse that that which is, and there is nothing else you can’t leave, you can’t escape. And we’re all deeply, profoundly entangled and interconnected part of that, therefore, as you, Dennis, raise your vibratory frequency, guess what you’re doing to the universe. You’re raising vibratory frequency of the entire universe and influencing every century of being an every rock. in that universe. It’s amazing. I want to add to that first verse say, Amen.
Dennis, remember, something that Rick tarnis shared with us. And it was from Plotinus. And it’s so beautiful, and it speaks, I think it speaks directly to what you’re talking about. And it says, The stars are like letters that describe themselves at every moment in the sky. Everything in the world is for signs. All events are coordinated. All things depend on each other. Everything breeze together.
A beautiful video, that actually brings us into our next assumption that’s 2000 years ago, and yeah, there’s a six assumption which was written by Plotinus. He was he, there you go. we ever get a check.
Circumstance guides us on our journey to wholeness. circumstance loves us more than we do.
So a lot of people think they are victims of circumstance, we say okay, what we’re doing here is we’re taking the opposite was the opposite of a victim of beneficiary. We are beneficiaries of circumstance. It’s every time I get smacked upside the head with a two by four, when I think I’m going from A to B, and something comes out of left field is that no, you’re not, you’re going over there. Again, I have to learn to be grateful to know that I’m not a victim, that I’m a beneficiary. And thank you for redirecting me.
So we didn’t look for the opposite of the prevailing paradigm. But it’s a good tool for people to say, Okay, what do I think? Let me try flipping it to the opposite. We actually just came away, we started from the other end, we came up with this concept for the 10 assumptions and then said, okay, so what? Current What is this what people believe right now? No. So what do you believe, and we made a list of those 10.
A circumstance loves us more than we do, because we’re in this little box of this paradigm that says, we’re separate that we’re not okay, that doesn’t matter, nothing matters. And here, we have this loving universe, taking us on this journey that we agreed to go on, and we asked it to take us on. And we discover that every circumstance actually happens for us, not to us, and is taking us places we wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.
No suspect you know that right? So everything happens for us, not to us. If something’s happening to me this that victim thought is in there, isn’t it? That if it’s happening for me, no matter how terrible it may appear on a surface, if everything is happening for me, and I can truly trust that. Wow, that’s so liberating.
Yeah. And so there’s two more assumptions. Is that correct? Yes, there are. Nice assumption, the ninth assumption, which is that humanity is on an evolutionary upward spiral.
Okay. Because if we assume that we see that then and then the answers, all the answers are different from overhead and downhill, we’ve gone the wrong way. All that. So that’s a really important one that were leading x, x or x or blade and X inexorably to peace on earth and heaven on earth.
And if that’s what you remember, what an assumption is, it’s a belief. It’s something we believe to be true without questions. You do not question on assumption. So if you were on this upward spiral at times, it’s Rocky, but on the whole, we are unfolding, they’re blossoming, we’re growing as a species.
Well, okay, so I want to I want to peel the onion on that a little bit, because I spent most of my life thinking that times linear. That you know, we’re going in this Straight line out there. When you talked about we’re spiraling. Hmm. Then that gives us some the, I’m assuming then that time is cyclical,which is a big that’s a big thing for someone to pick up if they’ve been on the linear path their whole life. But the Vedic texts talk about it the precession of the equinoxes, it all the ancient traditions have it, that it’s time to cyclical, exactly.
So it moves forward. It’s teleological in the sense that it’s going somewhere. Think about, think about our sun and our solar system. It’s going somewhere, it’s traveling through the universe at very high speed. And it’s everything’s revolving around everything else. So the whole thing’s convoluted spiral that’s evolving, because it’s different in different states and different times.
And we’re coming around, but we’re coming around at a higher place. History’s repeating itself, but it’s it’s coming around at a higher level.
That’s kind of the how spiral dynamics talks about a g7. I think, yeah, I don’t know much about that. It’s very important thinking. But yeah, it’s, it agrees with what you’re what you’re saying. Interesting. Okay. Well, okay, so number 10. What’s number 10?
Number 10 Is the trust frequency is available to anyone, anytime, anywhere, and that it is a real place. Interest frequency is real. In other words, this is not a fantasy. This is not just a made up thing. There’s a vibratory state of consciousness, that’s real. And we can go there anytime just by remembering that it’s real. And what can get us there, our vibratory level our seven days, because it’s a conscious, loving universe.
And I want to underscore that when you’re talking about vibrational, you’re not talking metaphor. You’re talking physics. It’s physics. It’s physics. It’s vibration. We touched on that a week or two ago with the research director for Heart Math Institute. Yes. Okay. And in what he’s saying supports what you’re saying, We’re having so many people from the various vantage points pointing to this massive change. That’s, that’s happening. You know, it’s not something out there that’s happening. We’re in the midst of all this. And whether it’s psychological, physiological, vibrational, everybody’s saying it differently, but they’re saying the same thing. That we’re that we’re evolving to a higher level with that supports with
a higher frequency and says that there’s more information in a higher frequency. So his, his science is proving what we’re bringing through indigenous cosmology and quantum science synthesis. He’s, he’s bringing through this unified physics. And he said, when we tune our antenna, to a higher frequency, there’s more information. What we say is the laws are expanded. And there’s more beauty balanced joy and abundance than we can fathom. Because remember Jesus with the loaves and the fishes and the miracles, okay, the loaves and fishes, the limited abundance that lives there, and John Lennon’s Imagine, he’s telling us how we get there, and what it looks like, no possessions, the native people, you don’t own anything. You don’t own the land you don’t own. I don’t own this necklace. You know, if somebody likes my necklace, I realize it’s their turn, and I give it to them in the native way. So it’s a whole different reality in this higher frequency. And that’s, it’s a whole new ballgame.
So would it be true?
I love both of your comedy timings in your in your senses of humor, so It’s so delightful. Go clay. Alright. So would it be true that if we look at these
10 assumptions, that’s a way to peel back the layers so that I can begin to know who I really am. Why I’m really here and then move forward with that, you know, alignment. You know, the talk about Providence once one’s committed, once one’s aligned. And I’ve, I’ve personally experienced that. And you’re right, there’s no straight lines to anything. But boy, I tell you, when I aligned with my true purpose, the whole universe aligned with me. And guidance. That’s, yeah, yeah. And so that’s what I’m seeing your 10 assumptions are that that’s helps peel back helps reframe everything that allows that truth to come through.
And if you’re like, I’d like to say something about human beings and assumptions, the vast majority of us, I would say, all of us have assumptions, I’m sitting on a chair, I have to assume this chair will support my wage, people say Don’t make assumptions, makes an ass out of you and me right is, you know, we all make assumptions there, our understanding of the nature of things, the nature of the universe. But our assumptions came to us, in our pre conscious years before the age of seven, before we got those cheese before that analytical left brain really kicked in. So I was told, at the age of three, that I’m a little shit, just to take one of those things as an example. And I was also told, when I was five, that does see those people down there, once of the black skins, they’re dangerous. And oh, by the way, you know, is not enough. And we’re never going to have enough food, and we’re never going to have enough money. And we can never afford another house or any, on and on. All of that stuff comes to us as little children, from our parents, from our teachers, from our buddies, from our contractors, then the culture, cultural system, they 10 baked in cultural assumptions. And if we could be pygmy sitting in the African jungle, and there would be some equivalent of that I would have a different outward form. But I think every culture, sort of impregnates the next generation with these fundamental beliefs. That is the worldview of that culture. And who ever stops to think, and says, Wait a minute, where did I get that from? Do I really believe that? And can I rethink that it? Can I? Is it possible that I can actually bring them to the surface? Look at them say hell, no, I’m not. I don’t believe that. Where’d you get it from? Oh, my dad told me that. Uh, huh. Or my grandfather, on and on. So that’s what this work is about the trust frequency work is about examining assumptions. And basically being asked to just try on us an alternative set. And if it doesn’t fit, make up sometimes you’re on.
So many people say, this book, these assumptions articulate something I’ve always known, but never had the words or, huh, okay, because it is our true nature. We would go to say, perhaps it’s the true nature of the universe. But we’re not going to say that that’s dogma, one has to decide for oneself, one’s assumptions are and what’s relevant for one. But the one important thing is to understand is no shame, no blame for having come in, on this journey. Okay, so one’s not less than because one came in with self doubt and self hatred and brought all this challenge and abuse and whatever into our lives. No, is no is the job job we came here to do. So and the universe has blessed us with it, so that we can bring our true gifts, which is us. The universe wants us all of us. Wow. I’m
My head spinning. And when what came to mind a few moments ago, as you were talking, was this idea of fear. And the question. I’ve never thought about it. But is fear part of our DNA? Or is fear learned?
False Evidence Appearing Real fear of AR? Well, that’s one way.
But that I think, I think your point is, is it baked in? Is it in our DNA? And I would say the answer to that is yes, in that we, as we said earlier on, all of my predecessors are in static folders. So everything they believed and experienced and understood from those experiences that were dangerous or scary or unpleasant, whatever they were the things those things which we would fear as opposed to loving, you know, I don’t welcome pain or disease. But those things that we might be afraid of. I think we it’s twofold. One is we were taught very intentionally to fear certain things as children, like, I grew up in Africa, that snake, if it bites you, you’re gone. Yes, survival. So there are certain survival things that are practical, sensible things Don’t just sit down and meditate in the middle of the freeway. Not a good idea. Okay, so, bingo.
For me, I’m thinking that, yes, fear is part of my DNA. And when I’m born, it only manifests really when it’s reinforced. I’m, you know, like, I mean, I don’t know if I’m saying it right, what I’m trying to do is make a correlation between is fear as part of our DNA. Well, James Doty, and his work with on compassion, says that compassion is part of our DNA.
And it’s a rush. And trust is, and we know that if there’s nothing in the universe, but love, and love is obviously part of our DNA, because DNA is actually made of love. But it’s that freedom that we somehow have been given, if we put it that way. That’s our that’s how I was given this assumption, I was given free will, I was given the freedom to believe anything I choose. And actually the job of figuring it out. And I have installed stuff, but my culture. And as I grew up, a lot of us as teenagers, we rebelled, only we got shut up that I’m not gonna do that. You know, so there’s all of that we all come from a certain era, we’re in the 60s where our whole generation rose up and basically rejected some of the fundamental assumptions of the collective culture.
So free will, which is our fifth assumption is an absolute law of the universe.
And that’s constant no such thing as no free will we, we have the freedom to choose our frequency.
That’s a big responsibility.
Right there see, freedom to choose our frequency? We can, we can say no, I don’t believe in all that, that’s fine. We have the freedom to choose our assumptions to choose where we put our attention to choose all this stuff.
If that were not true, Connie, then when someone cuts me off on the freeway on a Thursday, I would react exactly the same way as I do on a Friday because on a Thursday, I’m all mad and pissed off and angry at that person. On a Friday, they do exactly the same thing. And I’m, oh, they’re having a hard time. And let me get him. They’re the exact same thing happen. But I’m the one.
See the choice? See, life is just an endless sequence of choices have conscious intentions.
And I say to people, you know, people say, Oh, you’re trying to change me? No, I’m not trying to. I’m, I’m telling you a set of assumptions. I don’t care what you do with them. That’s your choice. You complain. We’re offering this set of assumptions and this book and our who we are, and our worldview, but I don’t care what you think, or what you do. That’s your business. It’s totally free will.
What feels so good about this is that this is the the definition of living at the moment when we say it’s a program of attraction, and not promotion, you know, that this is what you it’s what you’re offering me, you’re offering me an opportunity to be able to say, search inside myself. Look into who I am. And how’s that working for you, Dennis?
And a child, isn’t it?
When you rather be beloved, from a victim, when there
There you go. Yeah, I know that I know. Because I look into my own resentments toward myself and I wonder, well, I must be getting something from that. What am I getting from holding that against myself, I’m I must be I must be finding something. Either some need to stay small or something that I’m doing that I’m holding against myself, to be able to do that
The men’s work that I’ve done, that I can’t see the perfect person that I am, that the universe has has, you know, has given me and that’s where the men who surround me remind me who I am. And, and I bring that up because we’re going to get together again. And we’re going to talk about men’s work. And so I just wanted to put that in there but what you were saying really brought that out in my mind.
I’m so I’m so happy that we get a chance to have another conversation with you both on the nominee on this subject. And because I have a, my sense is is that this is it’s going to be iterative. And that we are, we’re actually going to be the using many of the principles that you’re talking all of the principles that you’re talking about in our next discussion. But it’ll just have a different cosmetic face, but it’ll be the same essence of what we’re talking about, or a different application to a different application of that. Thank you. Thanks,
I wanted not to lose one thing from what Yeah, please. You talks about your resentment towards yourself. So this is from Jay, foundational, we have these beliefs about ourselves that were baked in when we were little, little boys, and our self esteem, how love for ourselves is the hardest thing. It’s kind of easy to love. It’s kind of easy for me to love this girl. I mean, who wouldn’t?
Who wouldn’t? God.
And like, my little grandchildren, you know, I mean, that’s relatively easy, but look in the mirror and face myself. Oh, man. So one of the most challenging things is actually our self respect, self esteem, ourselves, love. And trusting this, this, these, these 10 assumptions actually help a whole lot. They’re each fragments of a mirror that adds up to a very beautiful reflection of ourselves as magnificent, as beautiful as useful. As he over the purpose, all of those things that really helped me personally, my practicing for decades was to to learn that I was lovable. I actually didn’t believe I was lovable. And man, that was hard. And I did a lot of Ben’s work myself place. And we’ll talk about that,
Again, I just want to say backlog in the conversation. The idea that a reaction and a behavior has to do with core issues. Somebody brought that up to us. Decades ago, when we had a thing right before the this person came to visit us. came to see us. And she said, Whoa, that sounds like a core issue situation. And that just took it right there. Right to what’s going on. I mean, that observation of hers changed our lives. Right there. Core
When his inexplicable behaviors emerge.
Yeah. Thank you. Pray. Thank you for inviting me on this journey. And thank you for inviting me to this conversation. To enter Connie, y’all. Thank you so much for for this time. And thank you for for knowing that we’re going to be having another conversation with you and I knowing that it’s already scheduled makes me very happy and thank you both. Clay. Thank you so much. And thank you everyone who is listening out there. And please join us again for in search of the new compassionate male.
And that has been an honor. Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male on your favorite podcast Station.
Author and Professor, University of Nevada, Las Vegas – Dr. Gard Jameson received his PhD from Pacifica Graduate Institute in 2005. He teaches Chinese and Indian philosophy in the Philosophy Department at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas. Prior to his tenure at UNLV, Mr. Jameson spent 25 years practicing as a Certified Public Accountant and Director of Financial Planning at Piercy, Bowler, Taylor & Kern and Touche Ross. He is the author of three books, Footprints on the Sands of Time, the story of his mentor, Dr. Raymond M. Alf, Phaethon, Our Mythic Moment, an ancient Greek tale that illuminates our current predicament, and Monkey, Our Mythic Moment, the grand epic of China. Mr. Jameson helped found and chairs the boards of the Children’s Advocacy Alliance, the Interfaith Council of Southern Nevada and the Nevada Institute for Spirituality in Healthcare. He is the Treasurer and Cofounder of VMSN (Volunteers in Medicine in Southern Nevada). Mr. Jameson also helped found the Nevada Community Foundation. Mr. Jameson also serves on the board of the Stillpoint Center for Spiritual Development and the Alf Museum of Life in Clarement, California; and is a minister at the Grace Community Church in Boulder City, Nevada. Mr. Jameson has a BA in Religious Studies from Stanford University (1975). Mr. Jameson’s greatest joy is his wife, Florence and their two children, Michael and Julia.
Dennis Patrick Slattery, Ph.D., is Distinguished Emeritus Professor in Mythological Studies at Pacifica Graduate Institute in Carpinteria, California. He has taught there for the last 26 of his 52 years in the classroom. He offers riting retreats and workshops in the United States and Europe on exploring one’s personal myth through the works of Joseph Campbell and C.G. Jung’s Red Book.
then the question came up, can I trust laws can laws mentor us, when we experienced a loss of a friendship of a person of a, of a part of our life that we realize, you know, that’s gone. I thought I could hang on to it, I thought it was going to be permanent. And I see that it’s dissolved, or it’s in the process of dissolving, trusting in a loss can be seen as creating a vacuum in us. But it also can be understood as giving us an opening that we never had before.
Clay Boykin 00:54
Hello, my name is Clay Boykin, and I’m in search of the new compassionate mail. Just a short while ago, I had the opportunity, the wonderful opportunity to have another conversation with our friend, Dennis Slattery. You know, these podcast episodes go deep. But I can tell you that the ones that Dennis and I have go so much deeper, and we never know where they’re going to end up, but they always end up someplace good. So let’s join that conversation. We’re on here talking and in the times that we’re able to sit over lunch, and I get home and Laurie says, What would you talk about? I don’t know. But how to make it fit? Oh, I felt great. We just covered so many things. Well, what was your bladder?
Dennis Slattery 01:43
But we both know, and this is how I’d phrase it, both of us know that erros was present. Because the relationship between us and then the topics that we move through, deepen. And that for me is when arrows is present in what is present in the classroom. The classes are terrific, they’re animated, people are thinking through things not to agree with each other, but to see what their own myth is.
Clay Boykin 02:16
Okay. All right. Tell Tell me more about arrows. What what?
Dennis Slattery 02:22
So one, one of my favorite books of young is the transcripts from a dream analysis seminars, 1928 to 1930 and youngest with either two or three, I think it’s to other analysts. And they’re taking dreams of maybe five, six sentences. That’s it. And then they’re working, and youngest listening to translations and he steps in and agrees and then he steps back every August. So one drain, about page 99. In this volume that is just scintillating reading. They’re working on a man’s screen, who is in a questionable in his dream and his questionable relationship with his daughter. And one of the analysts says, well, he’s in an incestuous erotic situation with his daughter and young kind of slams his fist down and he says, No, he’s in a deep relationship with his daughter because Aeros is about relationships. Now it can get perverted into pornography, lust, greed, but he says arrows is the presence, that energy presence of relationships that bind people together. And the dream was the unconscious narrative. Not about this man having a set said the the analyst wanted to liberalize it into a sexual relationship and, and Jung essentially said, No, it’s symbolic of a relationship that’s deep that this man has with his his daughter and boy, when I read that play, I thought that that is so helpful to understand though in our culture, the anything erotic is right away kind of Freudian sexually based, but for young, it was always the symbolic and that’s why I’ve read one time play that He personally analyzed over 80,000 dreams in his professional life. You just was in the unconscious. Not all the time. But that was his. That was his default position.
Clay Boykin 05:15
That was the unconscious. That was his playground.
Dennis Slattery 05:19
That was his playground. So anyhow, that’s that’s what helped me understand arrows as relationship
Dennis Slattery 05:25
Okay, well now a couple of things but first of all, what I hear you, for me it translates to intimacy. Absolutely. The intimacy is to me is almost synonymous with arrows. Okay, and I in intimacy and not not in a sexual sound, they could be in a sexual sense, but intimacy in terms of you and I have an intimate relationship. Yes, powerful and deep and it’s hard to hard. It’s hard to hurt. Okay. So that Okay, so I’m on track there now. It was arrows, a mythological person.
Dennis Slattery 06:10
Yes. Yes. And the famous the most famous that I know. And a scholars who know more than Miss stories could add another but it’s in the arrows and psyche myth. That arrows reveals himself. His mother is Aphrodite. If my memories serving me and Aeros comes to psyche at night and psyche sisters are very envious, that Aeros chooses psyche and not them to visit at night. So they conjure and psyche trust now, I’m thinking of our theme resume here, right? So psyche trust them and they when Aeros comes he comes in darkness. And there is no light allowed. So the sister say tonight when he comes and he’s sleeping, light a candle and take a look because he’s a grotesque monstrous figure. Of course arrows is this handsome, beautiful. Man. Oh, God. And so she does. And when arrows, fields the light of think of it’s a lantern with oh, it’s an oil lamp. I’m just trying to grab some of these pieces. He awakens immediately and she startled and two or three drops of that hot oil, land on it. Oh, that’s what wakes him up. That’s what wakes him up. Because she startled at his beauty. And now she’s trying to square the circle of her sisters telling her he’s a monster. And she says, I’ve never seen anything so beautiful in my life. Well, when those drops of oil land on his skin, it startles him and he shoots out the window. And then she is given tasks to perform by effort diety his mother in order to reclaim him. And all of these tasks that psyche is given in a kind of individuation process where she has to suffer the blisters of things that she says I can’t I can’t do this. But different animals, different figures come and assist her and so she’s able to accomplish them. So the story of arrows and psyche is one of the richest in Greek mythology and I’m sorry I’m not pulling up more details it’s been a while so
Clay Boykin 09:15
that’s really good that that gives that gives me a bread trail to follow
Dennis Slattery 09:23
always fascinated to play with those two or three drops of hot oil because they she holds the lamp and sees him she becomes so fascinated with his beauty that the that the lantern the lamp just turns enough to spill the oil that awakens him and he doesn’t even flinch but he shoots out the window. And then her task is to reclaim Errol’s. Yeah, it’s a beautiful story arrows and psyche and Eric noise It has written magnificently on that myth, if you’re interested, he’s just, he’s one of the best union analysts. I think that followed you home. Oh, work with young, and then follow us thinking
Clay Boykin 10:16
and myth, the myth of arrows in psyche.
Dennis Slattery 10:20
And I think it says something to us about our dream life in ways that I can’t comprehend right now that there’s something about when we enter that dark space of the unconscious. Do we trust? What we’ve been told about the unconscious? Or do we try to have a direct human experience with the unconscious? So it’s so ironic that the sisters who, who tell her this falsehood begins her process of individuation. It’s like a via negativa.
Clay Boykin 11:12
Would it be? I guess what just came up to me, is this going into the unconscious? There’s an intellectual pursuit of the unconscious, which I don’t think will get me too far. But there’s an intimacy if I can have an intimate relationship develop an intimate relationship with my unconscious? Yes, there’s then the that opens. That opens a portal.
Dennis Slattery 11:47
Yes, exactly. Right. So psyche seems to need arrows to begin that intimate contact with herself, but also with the larger world, because when she sets out on these tasks, like Hercules sets out on his tasks, she sees I am ill equipped to do this by myself. So then it puts her into relationships with others with ants and other figures that come in to help her separate wheat from chaff, something she can’t do. So she’s on the erotic road as she seeks arrows. I love it. I mean, they just are the brilliance of the Greek myth. If it’s the process, the process itself is what you’re seeking. Aha, if that, in that beautiful, poetic way that myths, speak to us.
Clay Boykin 12:56
I’m looking up something here. Yesterday, I was surprised. Well, first of all, is my birthday.
Dennis Slattery 13:07
Yes. Happy birthday.
Dennis Slattery 13:09
Thank you, as I mentioned to you, yes. Thank you. And my wife, Laurie and two friends. They took me away at 11am. And they said, Yeah, just be ready to go at 11. Okay. And they took me off. And we went to the ATB center up in cedar park to see circus Olay. Oh my gosh. And you know what the which one it was? It was ovo. Okay, don’t know it. It’s about bugs. Oh, it’s about bugs. And when you said she connected with the ants, the image of ovo the image because there was this huge egg. Oh age. And throughout the whole performance. In the background. There’s some ant carrying an egg. You know, and it’s this interconnection, of all the all the bugs together and all the acrobats. Oh, my gosh. And that’s what came to mind. Yes. Oh, my
Dennis Slattery 14:20
God, you got bugs on the mind?
Clay Boykin 14:22
I do. I do. I did. It was a great performance.
Dennis Slattery 14:27
Oh, that’s we’ve seen three over our lifetime. And each one just left us breathless. Yes, it’s just that they have a slice on fantasy that no one else can touch. Yeah, that’s our experience has been.
Clay Boykin 14:47
Yes. I think the first one I saw was in 1998. And I think they’ve they’re, I think they came out in like 93 or 98. For. Yes, yeah, that’s right out of out of Montreal is where they’re where they’re based out of.
Dennis Slattery 15:06
I think that’s right. Yeah. Yeah. Well, okay, Antonio, one in Las Vegas, and I can’t remember the others. But anyhow, you know, musing on trust after you and I had lunch, and I can pull my hunger writing out two or three pages, and then I’ve even added to it. But I’ve suffered a loss recently. And I don’t want to go into that. But I, what happened with me is that I, I asked myself, What does trust have to do with loss? And then the question came up, can I trust, loss can loss mentor us, when we experienced a loss of a friendship of a person of a, of a part of our life that we realize, you know, that’s gone, I thought I could hang on to it, I thought it was going to be permanent. And I see that it’s dissolved, or it’s in the process of dissolving. Can I learn to trust, the uncertainty, that loss opens in us? So I just was, you know, just kind of thinking through that. And I thought I’d bring it up with you to see how trust trusting in a loss can be seen as creating a vacuum in us. But it also can be understood as giving us an opening? Yeah, that we never had before. Right? So I, you know, I just was, I was just musing. And, to your point earlier, I wrote to myself, it’s just not enough to simply trust in oneself. We have to have that trust in others, who help us. Not only identify ourselves, but I think help us define ourselves. But without trust as a bedrock of, you know, who you’re going to tell your story to, and who you might not want to tell your story. True. story, too, is based on Do I trust this person. So yo, ne. And I came to this notion that trust promotes a common sense, to things. Trust gives us a common ground.
Clay Boykin 18:07
You know, as you’re saying that what comes to mind is the work that I’ve done on the topic of vulnerability, perfect trust and vulnerability or you are so joined. And, yes, you know, Brene Brown to stand in one’s truth with an open heart to heart it is the that end of the spectrum of vulnerability, and I. So if that’s wholehearted, I say, when I use the term brokenhearted is when I’m closed. You know, when I’m not going to let you in? And maybe, you know, out of fear because I don’t trust you. Yes. And another side of that is, I’m not going to let you in because I trust myself
Dennis Slattery 19:04
to not only maybe,
Clay Boykin 19:06
yeah, but I trust myself to know that I should not let you in there. Exactly. And that spectrum between being closed hearted and wholehearted are brokenhearted and a wholehearted is yes. It’s all wound, which is wound around which I think it’s it’s two it’s two pieces of a piece of rope. Yes, and vulnerability, wind around each other. Yes.
Dennis Slattery 19:35
And, you know, on a large global scale right now, I think that Putin carries the archetype of the of the of the untrusting. Yeah, nobody can be trusted. I alone. Kind of have the answer. And just from a mythic and psychological level, how that is enclosing him in a cocoon of his own making, and narrowing and suffocating. And how infernally painful. It must be for any human being, to feel that no one is trustworthy. And so if they’re forced back on their own solipsism, and it just spins around inside that cocoon, with no arrows. In fact, arrows, I think, in that situation can be transformed into a violent energy that just explodes out with no boundaries. So this is this is the flip side of arrows. Where no relationships kind of eventuate in a response, that’s one of violence.
Clay Boykin 21:09
So arrows is an energy that’s going to come out one way or the other.
Dennis Slattery 21:13
Yes, absolutely. It’s one of those primal centers in us that can split and go in either direction, either towards a benevolent, compassionate, your work and, and mine on a smaller scale. So trust is so connected to the ability to be compassionate. Without trust, I don’t think one has the capability of being compassionate towards others,
Clay Boykin 21:49
and is not necessarily trusting the other that I would be compassionate towards. I mean, that I don’t have to trust the other person to be compassionate for him. Okay, that’s, that’s a hard thing for me to, to grasp. But it’s, it’s easy to trust somebody and to have compassion for somebody that you’re close, that you that you’re experiencing arrows with, yes, but have compassion for someone who is causing harm. And to see that below that action that’s going on, at a deeper level. There’s no There’s, there’s a human being that’s in pain. That’s right. There’s a suffering that’s happening at a deep, deeper level, that’s manifesting itself in damage to other people.
Dennis Slattery 22:46
That’s right. And so Oh, no, please.
Clay Boykin 22:50
Yeah. So that’s, that’s, that’s my my point is, is if I can reach in, to have compassion for that it doesn’t condone what the person is doing outwardly. No. And that’s been a hard thing for me to really wrap my arms around intellectually, I can have compassion for the person. But in my heart of hearts, now I’m just as judgmental and damning as the next person might be.
Dennis Slattery 23:17
That’s, and that’s where self compassion, I think really plays an important part. In Yeah, that’s part of who I am. And that’s part of some of the work that I still have to do within myself. Yeah, but I like I like your point of view there. Because it suggests to me that being compassionate towards one that you don’t trust could bring that person to trust you. In which case, that might be the first step in breaking out of this negative energy field that they occupy isolated and alone. You know, like Dante lost in the dark wood at the beginning of the poem. Yeah. Well,
Clay Boykin 24:07
and that rings true with my model of vulnerability if I can continue to be wholehearted because it takes two people to be vulnerable. You know, most Yes. You know, you and I are both coming to this conversation wholehearted?
Dennis Slattery 24:27
Yes. You know,
Clay Boykin 24:28
what if I went into a conversation and the other person has an angry heart, you know, or a wounded heart?
Dennis Slattery 24:37
Clay Boykin 24:39
And they’re casting out things that would turn me off, you know, that would push me away. But if I can stand there, and remain wholehearted eventually, there’s only one place that that other person can end up and that’s wholehearted to, to get below that surface. To get down to the, to the heart of the matter. Yes.
Dennis Slattery 25:02
The other option could be just a total rejection of you, because you’re making them feel too vulnerable. And that that heat shield that they have up is going to think it could thicken not is not determined to thicken. It’s proof that they don’t want to see. They don’t want to see so that it’s part of like Campbell’s idea of refusing the call. One’s called. But no, they’re saying not now. I’m too busy. Call me back. But also because you’re making me feel vulnerable and that is really scary.
Clay Boykin 25:47
piercing through that, that sir? Yeah. Young. Let me answer your question. Go ahead, please.
Dennis Slattery 25:54
Okay, well, you go, okay. Okay.
Dennis Slattery 25:58
You wrote this article recently? Yes. What was the motivation? I mean, motivation, what was the inspiration behind writing the article? I mean, first, talk a little bit about what the article was about, I know, trust, but take it a little bit deeper than that.
Dennis Slattery 26:15
You know, so I, I, I have a copy of from the newspaper here. I think of feeling one morning, here in my study, with a candle lit into my little gooseneck, lamp lit and thinking how
Dennis Slattery 26:39
part of the divisiveness in our country, but I think also on a global psychic level is being fed daily by distrusting one another. And I thought, well, what, what is this thing of trust? So I started to think about examples and how there are boards of trustees. How on our money, it says In God We Trust, right. And getting ready for today, I thought of that show. I can’t remember how long have goes on. But it was tremendously popular and successful. And it was entitled putting trust in the show would have couples. And they would ask the wife questions about the husband and the husband of the wife. And the nation was mesmerised nothing nation, but a lot of audience. Present. were mesmerized by listening to this to this couple that been married two years, 25 years. And what is it that you don’t trust about for? Or? I mean, it was, wow, it, it could have been light. But it often got heavy. And how one or the other couple in the couple was surprised to learn something about trust, or its absence or its uncertainty, its wobbliness in the other. So I just wanted to add that because I thought about it. Maybe an hour before we got on. On this conversation.
Clay Boykin 28:38
I bet you there were some divorce attorneys watching that real close.
Dennis Slattery 28:42
recording it. So I say in the article, I think of trust as the heartbeat when we were speaking about the heart and I’m so glad that we are it’s the heartbeat of any authentic relationship. So a fundamental question we might ask, I suggest in the article is not so much. Is this person loyal? But a deeper question. Is this person trustworthy? Is this person worthy of my trust? And if I’m open, reciprocally, is that true? And I push it a little bit to muse on the relationship of trust, to truth. I say their intimate first cousins. Truth suffers a hit. I wrote When trust is attacked, or dismantled. So there’s a fragile but still strong relationship between trust and truth. And in our era of distrust of misinformation of falsities, it becomes questionable. I have a pre, I have a buddy from high school, who I stay in touch with. There’s a group of us from our graduating class of 1963. At St. Joseph’s Marinus High School in Cleveland, we all graduated in 63. And there’s a website and we share stories and so forth. There’s about 55 of us that are involved out of a class of 313. Not all of the others have passed, but many have. And Bill and I get on the phone occasionally. And I talked to him a few weeks ago, and, and I was bringing up some national events. And he said, Dennis, I don’t have anything to say, because I’ve, I’ve sworn off my newspaper, and I don’t watch the news. And I say you don’t, you’re not in tune with what he said, No. And I said, Okay, Bill, we’ve known each other for 150 years, what’s going on? He says, I don’t trust any, I don’t trust anything of what I was hearing. And I decided instead of the roiling around in my head about, Do I trust that comment, or is that another fabrication, and he said, I just decided to pull the plug. And Bill’s not alone. I mean, how many either dig in to what they have come to believe that they trust, and then everything else gets deleted. There are those of us who want to stay open, and listen, but try to be discerning on what we’re hearing. And that’s, you know, that’s fairly impressive group of people as well. But trust itself is on the chopping block. And we’re seeing it now. Go to a global level, with the invasion of Ukraine and the response, the heroic response of the Ukrainians, and that they trust Solinsky. And so trust is just clay, it’s just so all pervasive right now. In the culture. I suggest in the article, that without trust, a host of demons can invade the gap that’s open by trust absence. And I won’t read all of them, but I’m just going to read four or five of them. A suspicion of others. When trust disappears, I’m suspicious of like my friend Bill, he says, I’m suspicious of everything I hear. So I’m going to block it all out. A lust for power, that moves into the vacuum, that trusts absence, has created an upstream except obsession with safety and security, which then spills into what I am going to allow my child to hear in the classroom, and what is off limits for him or her to hear. But it’s fear based from my perspective. Another one is a fierce tribalism. We get into these clusters, and then we cling out of the fear that is bred by uncertainty.
Dennis Slattery 33:49
And for you and me today. Can I learn to trust uncertainty? I didn’t think about that until after our lunch and I was musing at home. And in saying that, I want to feel into his uncertainty, a mentor, that I have not really allowed in to mentor me, but maybe I should now and I’ll read one more, or two more. One is intolerance. When trust is pushed to lowercase intolerance goes to capitalize uppercase, I. Extremism, rigid control, and then, and these aren’t in order order of extremity. But the last one I mentioned is self doubt. When I’m when I’m surrounded by a field of mistrust and distrust. It’s not a quantum leap psychologically even mythically to We begin to self distrust. You know, can I even trust my decision here and voting in the primaries? Right? So it, it’s, it’s a toxicity like an invisible, toxic gas. And we’re all breathing it. And I just wanted to bring it into consciousness through these 620 words of an op ed piece.
Clay Boykin 35:28
It was a beautiful Op Ed,
Dennis Slattery 35:30
thank you so much.
Clay Boykin 35:32
I want to go back to uncertainty. Yes. Good. That just rings so loudly in your muse about trusting uncertainty? Yes, I’d like to peel the onion on that. Where does that? How does that play out? Yeah. One word that comes to me is faith.
Dennis Slattery 35:59
Faith? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, if I can share this, because you and I are on the same wavelength here. I was thinking and I mentioned in the article, along with faith, hope and love, I want to say there’s a fourth tip that prescribes to quaternity. And that is trust. So I started to think about faith, hope and love. And I push that a little bit, and I want to share it with you and listeners in faith, I trust in what can’t be seen, measured. But since its presence, on a super sensible, level, hope, hope allows me to trust in the future, to see possibilities I may contribute to in their unfolding. And then love to trust in the awareness of how all need to feel loved, acknowledged, respected, and maybe most important, Lee clay witnessed. People have this deep desire. And I share it to be witnessed by others. And I think that’s a form of love.
Clay Boykin 37:31
For you really struck something there. In Me, in our men’s circle, there’s an underlying, there’s an underlying theme. And I think I plucked it out because it was something that was so important to me at the time, early on this pleading this inner pleading of I just want to be heard, I just want to be heard. Yeah. You know, I don’t need anybody to fix me or make suggestions or tell me their war story. I just want to be heard. And that’s the other desperate cry. And that’s, yeah, that’s what I read. That’s how I hear what you’re saying.
Dennis Slattery 38:12
And, and if I make it beautiful, what you just said, that’s the play of arrows. I think that’s the plea of arrows saying I want to be in relationship to, and I can’t, unless I feel heartfelt that I’m being heard, that I’m being witnessed. So I’m liking what’s happening here with arrows who kind of slipped into this conversation early on and is kind of hanging onto us, which is beautiful. That arrows is that impulse to be heard. And I think it’s appropriate to go to the other side and to witness others, which is also an erotic move. And, you know, when, what something I’m reading recently Oh, the stories we live by Dan McAdams, some typing some notes on personal myth. He says what, what he discovered in his research, is that somebody somebody’s sensing that they’re deeply and intensely being listened to. is one of the greatest gifts that one human being can give to the other. Yes, yeah. I’m, I’m speaking and I’m listening. And as you and I work, we listen to each other. That’s, I mean, that is a human gift that I think is special. grid on in several ways that we could we could push.
Clay Boykin 40:07
So true. I want to come back to Yeah. Faith? Yes. In creating my mandala over the years that’s hanging behind me. Yeah, I love it. There’s I take religious tradition. And the one common theme that Karen Armstrong calls out. The common theme amongst all the major religious traditions in the world is the golden rule. Which translates to compassion. Yes. And so I’m associating compassion with religious tradition, and mythology. And I’ve been able to blur the lines between religious tradition and mythology. They’re, they’re communicating a wisdom forward. That’s right. And so in juxtaposition with religious tradition and compassion, with mythology, I associate the word faith. And the relationship then between faith and compassion is love.
Dennis Slattery 41:29
Yes. Now, how
Dennis Slattery 41:30
does that play into our conversation? I don’t know. I was just an observation that popped in mind when we were talking about faith.
Dennis Slattery 41:37
Good. Yeah, is is is faith, simultaneous with trust? Move by the energies of compassion. And I’m raising my voice into a question at the end, because I’m not sure. I was just seeing if I said anything else on No, I don’t know if this will help. But one, one insight that I was coming to off of the article, it’s not in the article. That trust sets up less a contract between oneself and others, and more a compact, a common pact with oneself and others. It seems to me that having a contract with someone else you could be married to. But there’s no compact. There was no there. Maybe it was there at the beginning and it faded. I can track.
Clay Boykin 42:58
I’m so pleased. Contractors head compact on heart.
Dennis Slattery 43:05
That’s it. Do you anticipate that’s? And that’s great that you finish? Finish that sentence? Yeah. And it’s a it’s a it’s a pack with the common place of both of us. And as I get older, the common the commonplace and the ordinary is far more interesting than the extra ordinary. Yeah. And I think that ordinariness of love is extravagant in a kind of paradoxical way.
Clay Boykin 43:44
I, I wouldn’t think of love as ordinary. But well, you put it, there’s very interesting.
Dennis Slattery 43:54
I’m resonating a little bit with them. I forget the name of I’m gonna forget her name. She lives in Wyoming. Montana, she wrote a book years ago called ordinarily sacred. Yeah, her name’s not going to come up. The title is, when I read that, I thought, I mean, this is two decades ago or more, I thought, you know, maybe I should be paying more attention to the ordinary. And then that kind of dropped out of consciousness. But as I’m getting into further into elder hood, rather than getting older. The ordinary has a has an extravagant quality about and that’s how I’m using that sense of love. Love is maybe an appreciation of the ordinary, I mean, one facet because complexity is right huge. But you know, I just find myself Watching people interacting with people and people doing small gestures of courtesy, helping one another out in ordinary ways. But it’s it’s it’s it’s love moving in the world. And in a compassionate, compassion, compassionate way play. Wow. I think it’s how love, it’s one of loves, manifestations in the world that it moves by means of the ordinary or moves through the ordinary, or makes the ordinary sacred of Linda. So almost had her last talk on it. But the title is, is it’s a small book, and it was just a profound meditation. And the name of the book again is ordinarily sacred, ordinarily sacred. Yeah, it’s just in somewhere. It’s buried in these text books. But nothing I think that was playing in the background for me. Little on I said, what I did about the ordinariness of love. And the best movie, in my limited repertoire is that magnificent film with Roy Roy double, entitled tender mercies. And it’s also the one who made it is famous and it’s it’s a in the essay on that film is in the is in one of my recent books, it might be in the I think it’s in the, the way of myth. But it’s the it’s the highlighting of a alcoholic country western singer who begins to sober up, finds himself in a motel room fighting over a bottle of bourbon with another alcoholic and then settling in and asking, can I earn my room and board and I’ll fix the doors and so forth. This is in Waxahachie, Texas, incidentally, where it was filmed flat. And the woman is raising her son, who was about nine, her husband had been killed in Vietnam. And she’s got a couple of gas pumps out front, she sells a few things in the store. And this is where his redemptive journey towards sobriety which brings up his create activity again and he begins writing songs and then he starts playing just in a little way with this band that just idolizes him and comes to visit him and they’re Volkswagen van and said, you know, you’re one of our you’re one of our mentors in song and please come and sing with us. He said, No, he has he was ready. But it’s ordinary that saves him
Clay Boykin 48:12
and it’s so it’s the right turn of self trust. Absolutely within himself, you know, Dennis this conversation could go on almost as long as our lunches go on. But I want to bring this one to close for the bike. Absolutely. Share with you. Just one one last thought. Yeah. I’m now I’m now it’s resonating with me why? Why the article that you wrote on trust, and why the whole topic of trust touched me so incredibly, deeply. Oh, thank you. And I’m in the reason it did. And I didn’t realize it until I pull up my mandola my computer here while we were talking to discuss this or that, and I’m looking around my mandola, which began years and years and years ago, is evolved throughout time. The word trust is nowhere on that mandala. And that really gives me pause. And I’d like to come back and let’s continue our conversation next time.
Dennis Slattery 49:33
Absolutely. Clay and thank you this was this is a it’s always a wonderful, stimulating. I’m surprised at some of the things that I said, which I had not planned, but we got what we do successfully is we we establish a field of relationships, and then we move around in it and that’s what’s so invigorating your center for safe
Clay Boykin 50:03
it’s so true in this whole search for the new compassionate male. And I’ve never expressed it this way but it is it’s creating a field. Yes it is and and that’s what I’m sensing it’s there’s a field of trust and vulnerability when we go into these conversations on these on these episodes so thanks for joining me on in search the new compassionate male. Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate male on your favorite podcast Station.
In his 30th published volume, The Way of Myth: Stories’ Subtle Wisdom, Dennis Patrick Slattery reaches back in “Part I: Mining the Myths Anew,” to some earlier essays on classic films and works of literature. He also includes extended meditations on the thought of mythologist Joseph Campbell; on creativity’s hungers; on beliefs as mythic constructs; and on the joys of painting. Many of the essays explore the act of reading and the importance of stories as they relate to one’s personal myth.
Rob speaks at colleges and universities around the U.S., and his essays on men and manhood have appeared in newspapers in every region of the country, as well as on websites including Ms., Women’s eNews, and Vday.
I know we’ve talked about some people describe the crisis and masculinity and we’re not hearing about, Well, the good news about compassionate man and men were wanting to change. But if we want to see men change, and if we want to have a culture that’s really inviting that change, then we have to be honest and open to identify situations where the danger is so acute, and the lack of identification of what’s going on is so under state.
Clay Boykin 00:53
Hello, my name is Clay Boykin, and I’m in search of the new compassionate male. Today I had the opportunity to have a conversation with Rob Oaken. Rob is the editor and publisher of voicemail magazine, that’s male spelled ma le, he’s also the former executive director of the men’s Resource Center for change. That’s one of the earliest men’s centers in North America. Rob has a book The title is voicemail, the untold story of the pro feminist movement. In it, he talks about one of the most important social justice movements, most people have never heard of the anti sexist men’s movement. Let’s join that conversation.
Dennis Tardan 01:37
Hello, World. It’s me, Dennis. And we are in search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this podcast, and I’m here with the founder, Playboy can Hello, play.
Clay Boykin 01:50
Hello, Dennis. Boy, am I excited about this afternoon. Rob Oaken is with us. And Rob has been deeply involved. And that’s an understatement, with with men’s work at all different levels. And I wish we had five hours to talk but we only have about 15 minutes.
Dennis Tardan 02:11
Well, we’re let’s give this a start. And we’ll be we’ll be going out. Rob, welcome. Welcome to the podcast.
Rob Okun 02:17
Delighted to be here and to meet you about? Well, it
Dennis Tardan 02:20
is, you know, we have been in search of the new compassionate male, because we’ve been looking, we know that that our role, especially our role as older white men, we have and who are still in power, who still have 80% of all of the of the political and economic influence that it is our role, we have to come to the table, and you specifically have talked about in all of your writing and all of your, your advocacy about the role of the male in the feminist in the pro feminist movement. Do I have that? That understanding? And I’m just exactly, I wonder explore that today?
Rob Okun 03:04
Sure. That’s it. That’s a fair summary. If you want me to pick up from that I can or
Dennis Tardan 03:12
That’s exactly right. Up in big beep.
Rob Okun 03:15
Okay. Well, it’s true that there’s been this tension all along over the years between feminism and men. And to me, it’s a false flag, because the benefits of feminism are about equality for everyone. So, you know, just to put that aside at the outset that, that men who feel threatened by feminism aren’t really understanding what it is and the unfair advantages that we have had just by the, you know, this the chance that we arrived on the planet in male identified bodies, doesn’t mean that we’re ruling the roost, even as you say that, this this moment that we’re in where it feels to a lot of men that the nature given God given power to be in charge is somehow being threatened, as opposed to recognizing that it’s been an unfair situation. It’s been a imbalanced playing field, an unlevel playing field. And now we’re at it at a moment where if men can get out of our own way, and when I say that, I mean our, our grasping on to what was your our fear of what could be if we can find that middle ground, you know, in our own hearts between trusting that what’s ahead is healthy and helpful for us as male identified people, but that there’s richness to having the input and the experience and the voice of women, you know, in all conversations and in all walks of life, and we’re having this conversation on a day when first African American woman is being nominated to be an associate justice in the Supreme Court. So I just want to put out for men who are listening to this, who might be skeptical or just feeling a little tightness around someone who’s identifying himself as Pro feminist, we can talk about why I say that versus just feminists that get comfortable with the idea that equality is something that we’re all entitled to, and that feminism is simply the proposition that women and men and anyone else that however they describe themselves, or define themselves, should have equal opportunities, equal benefits in our society.
Dennis Tardan 06:10
I was one of the things that clay, you know, you and I have talked about on many times is that it appears to us as if the level the world has gone to a level of complexity, that requires that before in the before times, that it was the words a simple enough system that that the patriarchal system might work to get us in certain in certain places. But now the world is so complex and interdependent, that we need the combination of all thoughts, the population at all thoughts and perspectives in order to succeed. It’s a synergistic rather than a zero sum game. Does, does that resonate with your, with your experience?
Rob Okun 06:58
Yeah, so of course, and, you know, I grew up, you know, in 50s, and 60s, and was socialized, you know, to the ideas and the expectations of maleness in, in those times. And it was only my experiences, going through the, you know, primarily the anti war movement, but certainly the beginnings of the environmental movement, birthday in 1970. And the gay rights movement and the women’s movement that informed how I was identifying with my maleness. And I feel fortunate that I came of age when I did, because I hadn’t hardened my views. So that I was not suspicious of women in the women’s movement or suspicious of gay rights movement. I was just kind of a young guy trying to figure it all out, and I was open. And I think that one of the things that I, I reflected on many years later in chapter I wrote for a book called Confessions of a premature pro feminist, which was a takeoff on the premature Anti Fascist from the 30s, to people that went to fight for the, against Franco in the Spanish Civil War, who our State Department described as, you know, premature Anti Fascist, and then who they turn to, to become involved in the second world war with their leadership. But I digress. I think that one of the things that occurred to me when I thought about those days in my late teens, early 20s, was that I’d be at these anti war meetings. And they were run by the stereotypical mustachioed more macho oriented guys whose politics on the war were great, whose politics on gender was just tone deaf to everything. And as I thought about it, when I was writing, you know, 40 years later, women were making the most cogent points in these meetings. And yet, in tools, leadership positions, that wasn’t entirely the case, there were moments and people in places but by and large, it was a male dominated. And that was one of the downfalls of the new left. And of course, it was women in the New Left, who threw up their hands when they recognize just how resistant in fact, As these men’s work, men work, and that’s gave rise to the women’s movement. And I think that it’s that nexus of recognizing women’s leadership, women stepping away from the movement that they were in, in creating their own movement that gave some men pause. Some men resisted that, you know, done. And other men said, what’s that about? And I think for those of us who had even a little bit of curiosity, you know, we were the kinder, gentler sexes. And I’m sure that if I could be in touch with some of the women that I knew in my undergraduate days that I would have some, some embarrassing moments. But, but it was that recognition that there’s something going on here, that consciousness raising groups and recognizing that there’s this relationship between the personal and the political, that that was just exciting, was confusing for sure. And I certainly like a lot of men who became involved in pro feminist men’s work. Certainly, there was some trepidation. But I think they the hunger for what was going on over there. And, and I think, more than just, you know, being sort of envious of it that that camaraderie and sisterhood in the politics and everything was so sparking, but I think there was in my heart of hearts, it was this recognition that this is right. And what was happening before was wrong. And it’s hard to unseat the truth when you’ve seen it.
Dennis Tardan 11:59
Well, you talked about trust, you talked a lot you’ve talked about. Both of us had had a lot of trust issues with men. Would you talk about that clay? And I’d love to hear Rob’s Yeah,
Clay Boykin 12:13
well, in this has been my feeling. And it’s been over the past 10 years in the men’s work that I’ve done. That seems to be kind of a common theme that so many men have either gone through their dark night of the soul, or they’re, they’re coming up through a recovery program or something, and they’re looking for something a little bit more, I’ll say spiritual, but they don’t differentiate between spirituality and religion. And they said, Well, I got burned on organized religion, so I’m not going to go there. And they can speak to their spouse or partner to a certain level, but it’s only when they can connect with another man at a deep level, that there’s some things that they’re that’s that they can only learn there. But we’re raised not to trust one another. And so that for me, personally, my experience was that created this void in me. And this knowing and, and the harder I worked outwardly, the more that this hurt inwardly. And I’ve run across so many men who said, Oh, yeah, I’ve got that feeling, too. And it’s, it stems from me, in not really having a strong male role model model growing up, and finding situations where I couldn’t trust men. And so that starts at spin, but I see a whole population out there of guys that are here, there, but they’re stuck. They’re stuck in their heart, or they’re stuck, or they don’t know, they don’t have the vocabulary to, to speak or to express themselves. And they’re confused about this. And, you know, we’re festering inside, and we’re dying, or we’re killing other people as a result.
Rob Okun 14:01
Right? I think you’re you’re hitting on and we’re the conversation in this organic fashion. We started with a little bit more of this social justice, social change, political orientation towards understanding what we could do as men. And you’re bringing us back to the key important, hard work that so many men have struggled with or our struggle with or don’t have the vocabulary for. And it just reminds me of the blessing of connecting with the organization that I became deeply involved with for many years. One of the earliest men centers in North America was called Men’s Resource Center and it was based in Western Massachusetts. I like to say that I showed up in Using baseball terminology in the bottom of the first second founder, but I was I was up close from pretty much the beginning. And the community where where I live in Western Massachusetts has had a long history of integrating spiritual pursuits in social justice pursuits, that, that, that whatever tension there might have been about those areas in the 70s, and into the early 80s, began to become very integrated. So the tagline of the organization, mentor Resource Center was supporting men, challenging men’s violence. So it was in the two wings of this this vertiv piece that we were trying to create. And I know that sometimes there were people who showed up, who were taken aback, and they couldn’t quite connect with, you know, those seemingly disparate ideas. But once the the conversation happened, or the self exploration happened, and there was that aha moment, it was like, Oh, of course, I have to do the inner work. And I can’t ignore the outer work. And, you know, it’s really interesting when, when Robert Bly died, recently, there was so much emphasis on his his work, you know, particularly Iron Man, and how he was perceived as this elder in the men’s movement. And it really ignored his whole history as a political activist, very strong anti war activist. And I always felt that it was too bad that even a paragraph or two in that book that said, you know, I’m focusing in on the inner work that men need to do. But this isn’t the place that I want to talk about the outer work that men need to be engaged in. And I, I had the opportunity of meeting him in his later Later years. And we didn’t have that direct conversation. But I felt like there was a sense of like, appreciation for I know what you guys are doing, meaning the men center and magazine that I added. And I think that, that there was a lost opportunity in the 90s. And, you know, I’m sure that if one talked to Bill Moyers, who did that famous interview with Robert Bly, that there would have been Oh, yeah, I probably should have talked about this piece. So I’m glad that we’re having the chance to notice that the stuck place the hurt place, can actually be loosened and freed up by feeling that sense of purpose to take on injustice. And particularly, gender inequality is a place where when men open up to it, and don’t feel resistant to it, that light bulb does really go on,
Clay Boykin 18:27
you know, I so true. We had a gentleman named Howard tie on, and I’ve gotten to know him pretty well. And in, in our conversation, at one point, we was talking about solar and lunar, he was putting the speaking in that term, the solar male and the lunar female. And the fact that both the genders if you will have both energies within them. And I was tracking along with that just fine. And then he said, Now clay, you’re in all marine. Now tell me if this isn’t true. The lunar leads, and the solar executes. Well, Dennis saw me I kind of back. Oh, boy. But, but I thought about it. And it’s true. In all my time in the Corps, it was heart. This is where leadership is born. And yes, and it’s a combination, of course, but primarily, it’s from the heart. And we execute from the head. I can’t think of a situation where we had to, you know, go into harm’s way where someone was just leaning leading from the neck up. And so to me, it’s like, Why can’t guys understand this? That that you’re not complete, just up here that you’ve got to embrace that this is where true leadership comes from. It’s from the heart, and you need to get there and learn. There’s nothing sought. There’s nothing soft about that.
Dennis Tardan 20:08
I really like how you how you phrase that clay because I want to ask you rob, that question of why. Alright, because here we are as a culture. Here we are in 2022. All the three of us are in the fourth quarters of our lives, and what we’re doing and what we’re so so where are the places where we can have impact in order to push this conversation forth and help change the world?
Rob Okun 20:36
Yeah. Yeah. Just a little question to ask
Dennis Tardan 20:40
just a little one on so yeah, they’re just toss away little.
Rob Okun 20:46
So man’s frozen spot, that place that, that we’ve been naming that that inability to open up into, look at our interior lives and to feel the struggle and to embrace it and to be vulnerable. All these things that most men have been socialized to be resistant to? We’re at, we’re at an at an inflection point where that’s slowly shifting. And I think it’s a great opportunity. And it’s a sense of frustration that we haven’t made kind of progress that we might have. But I think you hit on something like, there will probably be some people when they hear the word compassion. Or some people identify as male though, okay, I’m not going I’m not checking that out. No, that that words have been gender. So compassion is feminine, feminine. And courage is masking. So when we think the word courage, we think of the firefighter rushing into the burning, building and coming out with the baby, we don’t necessarily think that it’s a group of guys standing around and somebody makes a sexist or racist, or homophobic joke. And rather than casting your eyes down or walking away, somebody says, Hey, man, I don’t like that. I need you to stop talking that way. That’s not cool. That’s the kind of courage. So I think we’re, we’ve been stuck because men have felt that inability to speak up. And right now, I mean, this is a it’s a great point to dig into. Because I think we are at a moment where we need our voices in the conversation. When I say our, you know, whether it’s men and you say, the fourth quarter, I say, the 7/7 inning of them and
Dennis Tardan 22:55
yeah, I’m sorry. We’ve got a Red Sox fan here. So we better make sure that Fenway is as well represented.
Rob Okun 23:04
No, I’m referred to by my grandchildren as Big Papi. David Ortiz is the Red Sox. Now Hall of Famer. Yeah. Anyway. I think that right now, there is a potential army of men, making say from no young fathers in their 30s up to guys in their seven in the seventh inning, who, if we can organize ourselves and find their voices, we can really contribute so much to every social problem that we’re dealing with, you know, from from climate crisis, no, to no democracy crisis, I mean, across the board, and it occurred to me after Kyle Rittenhouse was acquitted for murdering two people in wanting another FF in Kenosha, Wisconsin at the protests about Jacob likes being paralyzed that he at 18 became suddenly a star among the particular perspective from the right wing. And I’m thinking to myself, are there fathers and teachers and uncles and mentors who want to raise sons, regardless of what you think of the the jury verdict or any of that? Do we want to have our 18 717 year old at the time? Do we want them thinking that the way to express power and courage and manhood is to go with a No What was it a key? Yeah. Yeah. Whatever he had an assault rifle. Is that what we want? Because if, if we stay silent, then that is the message that millions of males are expressing through our through our silence. And I say even that makes us in collusion with that we’re called, you know,
Rob Okun 25:34
it’s it’s just time that we use things like that as an example, to say no, no more.
Clay Boykin 25:41
I agree. This is what, so excited me, Rob, when you sent me the magazines, voicemail. And I started just quickly thumbing through and got tremendously excited because this is speaking to the younger men. And this has been an area where in search, the new compassionate male has really, it’s a wide audience, but it tends to be towards this, you know, entering into the second half of life. And so this has been a real,
Dennis Tardan 26:17
yeah. Entering and it is, and so are you finding, Rob, are you finding that, that burning in the 20 year olds, and the young and the young kids that are coming, I see it on the political front, but I’m not sure I see it in the men, I’m not experiencing it. Yet as much in in the, in the pro feminist movement?
Rob Okun 26:42
Yeah, I want to see two things, and then get into that a little bit more. One is that we haven’t done as good a job at doing outreach to a more diverse group of men. And that, just as the women’s movement started with, mostly, you know, middle class, white women, there became a critique of the narrowness of this and how it wasn’t expressing the needs of all women. And, and, and they took that on and over time diversified that movement, so that it is very racially diverse and sexual orientation diverse. And it’s been slower, but inside of the movement, that I use term, pro feminist or anti sexist, that it’s been important that there are more men of color involved and in leadership positions, and also to recognize that it’s, it’s the time where, for those of us who’ve been doing this work for a long time, and are in this fourth quarter, seventh inning, that we look to younger men. So one of the issues the last issue, I think, that I sent to play, the cover story is about an organization called next gen men. Yes, and, and your name, you know, says it all. And I’ve gotten to know the executive director and a few people on their staff over the last couple of years. And they are exactly taking on for 2022 and beyond the issues that men’s Resource Center was taking on in the 80s and 90s. Just to say, the founding executive director of the men’s Resource Center, work with closely My dear friend, Steve black. And when he first read about next gen man, he said, Oh, this reminds us of class in the early days. Wow. So that forecasting is going on. And they’re working more closely with voicemail. And I think, even though they’re in Canada, where there’s been a lot of great intersects as Pro feminist men’s work going on. So it’s happening and those of us who have a sphere of influence to make to bridge those divides and to bring more people in, whether it’s getting clergy to talk about it from the pulpit, or work with mentors in schools, to coaches to really invite because, you know, at the high end pointing up the street, the high school here, there’s a women’s rights club that’s been going on for 20 years, and we’re not at the place where it’s called the gender rights. Club. But every year, if there’s, you know, 2530 women, there’s five or six or seven guys. And that gives me hope when I see that that’s what’s happening
Clay Boykin 30:11
well and add on the voicemail magazine as kind of the the flag for some of this work. And it’s voice mail ma L E, which I love it. The point I wanted to make is this is this is not just a US magazine. This has this, it looks to me like it’s taking in, in speaking to more than just the young men in the US. Am I correct?
Rob Okun 30:41
Yes. And I think one of the most exciting things that has happened is starting about 20 years ago, maybe a little bit more. Those of us who have been involved in North America became aware that this work is actually global. Yeah. There was a US one guy who is actually originally from Texas, who was living in Brazil, and colleague working in South Africa, they had the perspective that was not North America, narrow perspective, they had a more global perspective. And they started about 20, some years ago and organization called Men engage all one word men engaged with the person he capitalized. And that’s grown over the years, the global MenEngage. Alliance, to be in I want to say about 85 countries, and hundreds and hundreds of organizational and individual members on five continents. And as soon as we end, the men’s Resource Center, and as I was taking voicemail, from organizational newsletter, and elevating it to magazine, it became clear that, oh, we have to talk about what’s going on globally. And some of the most exciting work was going on in South Africa, in India, and, you know, Europe was similar. And Scandinavia, I mean, Africa itself, there’s probably 17 countries on the African continent that happened engaged chapters. So this is clearly a global movement. And it’s all from from the get go, it has acknowledged as voice noun and and resource and it did the leadership of women and the wanting to endorse and back the voices of women. So this is a movement to invite younger men in into working for gender equality, and for their own enlightenment and their own freeing of themselves. But it has been an inclusive movement that has been diverse across the board in race and class and gender. I think I read there were over 900 organizations.
Rob Okun 33:43
Yeah. My keeping up with my own information.
Dennis Tardan 33:47
You know, Rob, what I love about this is how much hope this gives me because the when when the embers are just started, when we were just seeing a little bit to read before the fire really catches and when we’re doing, you know, when Lin Manuel Miranda wrote, wrote the Hamilton and he talked to and one of the songs is being in the room where it happened. This feels like we are in the room where it happened, that there is such a shift in consciousness that is happening right now. That is, that is actually what is emerging is something so much more integrated, and so much more whole than where we have been before.
Rob Okun 34:34
It’s true. It’s true that the first symposium of the MenEngage Alliance was in 2009, in Rio de Janeiro. And there are about 450 people from around the world. Few years later in 2014 was the next symposium and that happened to New Delhi, India, and that had 1200 delegates. And it was the most thrilling thing, the workshops, the plenaries, everything was so sparkling. But there was a big courtyard, it was November and the temperature is very late spring, like around 70s. And at lunch for in the breaks, people be outside and we had booths with our information. But it was like United Nations of people all rowing in the same direction. And it looked like the united nations of the world. And, you know, there were many things that I learned in the plenaries, and all of the workshops, but my heart lived in that courtyard for the breaks and for lunch and, and getting together with Julio from Mozambique. And everyone. I mean, it you can see the excitement is still there all these years later. We were all set we as members to go to Kigali and Wanda, last November, November of last year, for the the new symposium. But of course, we intervene and talk about making lemonade out of lemons, instead of a five day experience with finite, maybe it would have been up to 2000 people. It was a series of plenaries and workshops that went on from November to June and allow people from around the world and you can go to the menengage.org to their website and just type in Kigali MenEngage. Third, world symposium, and you can dip into workshops on every topic under the sun in some some outer space, probably.
Clay Boykin 37:18
I’ll be sure to put that URL and because it’s so important.
Dennis Tardan 37:23
It is and it’s so so exciting, Rob to to to see when you look at where you are today, and what are the things that you’re investing in the things that you’re curious about what’s what’s burning on, on, on the work that you’re doing.
Clay Boykin 37:42
I touched on it, it’s it’s that next gen men, it’s it’s literally those people from you know, their 20s 30s 40s, who were stepping into this work, and we’re ready to take on this work. I think that that’s, that’s, that’s one piece. And the other is figuring out how to loosen and open the hearts of men who have so much to offer in terms of mentoring, and leadership and expressing that dialogue that we’re hearing out there about, man. No, there’s another voice. Sadly, too many of the examples of masculine behaviors, quote, unquote, are so negative, I’m not a fan of the term, toxic masculinity, but I get it, I understand it in a kind of freeze frames, you know, we’re not all, you know, in a, in a moment, someone could be expressing toxic behavior, but that’s not their full identity, yet, examples that we get that we’re bombarded with every day. I mean, you know, there’s, there’s a madman operating in Moscow, who’s isolated who, who is an example, you know, until a couple until a year ago, I mean, you know, who we could point to our own country and speak about that example. But, I mean, it’s still influential, but he’s hopefully going to get more isolated, become old news. But all of these examples of the worst have stuck, stubborn, right? Fearful, tight, all of those examples, if we sit back and don’t challenge them, and that becomes that’s why that term, you know, you’re introducing, you know, a great new term and may you know, take route and become more powerful and more in the daily pylons. Then when toxic compassion, compassion wins every time.
Dennis Tardan 40:11
And it is a power it’s not a win. It’s not doesn’t come. I love the way you frame that earlier where you were talking about compassion, being identified with the female with it with a woman rather than compassion and courage yet yet what what you’ve said clay so often and we’ve had is that is the courage if there is such courage in compassion,
Clay Boykin 40:38
well Brene Brown talks about courage and the root being curb which means heart. And I keep going back to my time in college as a as a cadet at a&m and as a freshman, they marched us over to the memorial students center and say, you memorize this Bible verse. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend, John 1530. Yeah, that’s compassion. And there’s nothing soft about that when a man lays down his life for another man. That’s, that’s the supreme act of compassion. So these ideas that compassion is something soft, is really not it’s really off base. It’s much greater than that. I
Rob Okun 41:32
know, we’ve talked about some people describe the crisis of masculinity, and we’re not hearing about the good news about the passionate man, and then we’re wanting to change. But if we want to see men change, and if we want to have a culture that’s really inviting that change, then we have to be honest and open to identify situations where the danger is so acute, and the lack of identification of what’s going on. Is so under stated, What do I mean by that? The January six insurrection? Okay, it was this was an information from my friend and colleague Jackson Capps was 93%. White, but 86%. Male. And have you heard any discourse if you’ve heard any commentary? Have you heard any attention being given to the gender of insurrectionists? I’ve written commentaries over the years since Columbine, about how maddening it is that we don’t say the shooters gender identity, name, a spot name a spot 99% of the mass shootings, school shootings, theaters, shootings are done by men, and that we, at our peril. Think of this as a mental health issue, which of course, it is, on some level, even gender even with this, this high school student and his out of control parents in Michigan, we don’t speak the truth. And how are we going to change if we don’t identify what the problem is? So to me, if we want to take back the precious democracy, that’s an arrow right now, one of the places is to identify who the insurrection is primarily. And I would say that, of course, everybody knows that they’re mad. I mean, you say that there was a mass shooting, and everybody’s in their mind the image is, is not of a of a woman. And of course, if it is a woman, then that’s what the woman charged with mass shooting, but we don’t identify the perpetrator. We take it for granted. So part of the work of getting to a place where we can all embrace the new compassionate male is by looking at the hurt, twisted, destructive, troubled, dangerous, existing expression of so called man may think that that’s a piece that In terms of what we need to be looking at right now, as a culture as a society as a political moment, is really honing in on that disparity.
Clay Boykin 45:15
So well put, thank you for that.
Rob Okun 45:19
I, I, one of the things I did in my days at the men’s Resource Center, we had a range of programs from bunch of different kinds of support groups for men, young men of color leadership program and a women support group for women whose partners or ex partners were in a batter’s program, and we ran a certified batterers intervention program. So it was very broad range and published voicemail, we had a bunch of things going on with us as women, the battered general support gay men support group, and we’ve been neglected or abused in some way growing up. But for many years, Wednesday nights, I would lead a group. And at a later point, we decided who should have co leadership of a woman and a man running, better intervention. But one of our CO leaders coined this term. Steep Jefferson, who’s now not here on the planet, wonderful man. He coined the term compassionate confrontation. So imagine you’re sitting in a room where men either have been ordered by the court, go through this 24 week, 20 week program, two hours every week for Spouse said, we either deal with this I’m out of here, for a clergy member or therapist, so there was a mix of Courtney and dated and pushed in, encouraged. And they sit there and you could watch over the course of the groups, when when they started would be such resistance and there would be no, not unwilling to own any of the behaviors that got them there. And the beauty of the program was that people came in in a staggered way. So somebody who’s in week two, sitting in a room with someone that week nine and someone that week 16. And the the bats would hone in the group leader. Do you are just completely bullshitting yourself? You are completely, you know, not acknowledging the reality? She just fell? No. I just know if if she hadn’t had done that, then I wouldn’t have. And they broke it down. But Steve, when he coined this term, it’s like, we know that you’re not, you know, a battered 24/7. And so I’m going to feel the compassion for whatever it was in your life circumstances, however, you were brought up whatever happened to you, whatever bad things, I’m going to feel compassion for you. And simultaneous truth, I’m going to confront your abusive behavior. So going back to that model of how we ran the organization, supporting men challenging men’s violence, we could hold both parts of them. Yes. And just as a historical note, in the 80s, and 90s. That was a radical notion within the batters intervention world. And as time went on, the rest of that movement, caught up with that vision, just because it became the truth that compassion is urging exactly like you said.
Dennis Tardan 49:14
bra that is that is so that is so profound, because today we to be able to hold two thoughts at the same time and to be able to have because I need to not only have compassion for what I see out in the world, but if I cannot have compassion for myself for my mistakes for what I’m doing, if I’m not able to express it to myself, also, I’m not going to be able to be as effective in the outer world
Rob Okun 49:42
that fires burning out in the world and among the ones that we have to take care of is still a fire of of hate that In our own hearts,
Dennis Tardan 50:01
yes, yes, I have that. When you look at your grandchildren, what what do you see? How do you see in their consciousnesses as they were growing up from when you were, you were that age and you you’re getting a chance to do what does that do?
Rob Okun 50:21
I mean, that’s another place where I feel a lot of hope, or a girl and for two sets of siblings, for a little boy and two boys, and you’re between almost nine and down to four, particularly the older ones, nine and seven. They have a natural sensitivity. You know, one of them is copying out poems that he likes. One of them is knitting one day and going to Taekwondo, the next. I mean, they’re they’re integrators. And I think, and their, their parents are raising them to pull both places. Now the culture, no question, the culture is going to still try to push them into those traditional boxes. But I think a lot of younger parents who are it’s not even that they’re consciously fighting back. They’re just, this is how I want to raise my kids. And the whole both.
Dennis Tardan 51:32
And, you know, I don’t think Rob that the number has to be 50%. To get to the tipping point, there’s something about consciousness that takes a much smaller number, to get to a tipping point to to infect the entire society. Isn’t this wonderful clay, you just feel I my emotions, my heart is opening so much to being around you, Rob,
Clay Boykin 52:02
I want to say this. And I’m saying this with all my heart that last year with this podcast, we talked to great men, great women. And as I said earlier, they tend to be towards a little bit older. This year, I really want to bring in the youth, I really want to hear the voices of the young people. Because the audience needs to hear it and I want to want them to have this plan.
Dennis Tardan 52:35
I need to hear it and I need to hear it. That’s why we are in search of Rob, we’re in searches because we’re exploring without and within us. Because there’s so many places that I have conscious and unconscious biases that I haven’t even worked through, that I need to continue to work through. And both of us are exploring. That’s why we are in search of and deliberately made it in that vein.
Rob Okun 53:00
Yeah, they’re out there. And no, not at this moment. But I’m happy to give you some suggestions of and to invite. And I don’t know do you have women on this?
Clay Boykin 53:12
Dennis Tardan 53:14
Demographic clay crazies, don’t we demographic Yeah,
Clay Boykin 53:17
that listen to the podcast and visit the website, consistently between 48 to 52% of the followers of the people who go to visit the website or listen to the podcast, or women. There’s been weeks that that where it’s more women than men on the podcast, or listening to the podcast, they want
Dennis Tardan 53:39
to believe it’s possible. They want to believe that we can actually grow and change.
Clay Boykin 53:45
And the voices of the women who’ve been on the podcast have been incredible. Please have been incredible.
Rob Okun 53:55
Dennis Tardan 53:57
so we would love we would love to not only that, but we want to continue to connect with you, Rob and your guidance and helping us to find the voices. Because the voices that are around you are the voices we want to amplify.
Rob Okun 54:15
Well, that’s wonderful. And it just occurred to me that in addition to listeners or viewers on YouTube, of the podcast, might want to check voice mail magazine.org and look at it online and just remember if you don’t spell mail ma le, we won’t get too far. And if you don’t, and if you don’t put in magazine, you’re going to find a wonderful men’s soccer pellet group. Some great singing I always thought they should do a benefit concert for us but they’re called voicemail but you have to write voice mail ma le magazine.org. But for those who are Old school or if we just like the tactile experience, I’d be happy to have us send a physical copy of the magazine to anybody. And they can have that as a month.
Dennis Tardan 55:17
Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to learn with and from you. And to have this gracious moment this is very holy. For me, this gives me a great deal of inspiration and hope and play. I know you.
Clay Boykin 55:36
Yeah. I’m almost speechless. I’m so excited.
Dennis Tardan 55:41
I’m not bad at something my boy can being speechless is really
That’s a mouthful, right?
Rob Okun 55:51
I am understanding from what you’re both saying that we reached the end of our time, and it’s literally flown by because you have both invited the conversation and woven it together. That just really allowed me to feel that sense of hope that, you know, men aren’t just stuck, that men are opening up. I I used to say that when I was giving a talk or something that if the lights went out and there was no pilot power, you know, I would just have three words to say. Believe in men believe in our capacity to grow, believe in our capacity to change and to feel a sense of hope, fullness. Despite how many opportunities there might be to feel hopeless, because it’s happening. It’s happening and we’re only going to grow and it’s our time to speak up and to speak out.
Dennis Tardan 57:07
Clay thank you so much for for inviting me and Rob Oaken. Thank you so much for joining me and it is certainly for me not going to be the last time I’m going to be joining you and we are going to be doing it but anyway, thank you so much. And I think all the listeners thanks everyone for supporting the podcast supporting the vid cast and clay and I will get a chance all the information is on the link. And we will see all of you in search of the new compassionate mail next time.
Clay Boykin 57:49
Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate mail on your favorite podcast Station.