Richard Tarnasis the founding director of the graduate program in Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness at the California Institute of Integral Studies(CIIS) in San Francisco, where he currently teaches. Born in 1950 in Geneva, Switzerland, of American parents, he grew up in Michigan, where he received a classical Jesuit education. In 1968 he entered Harvard, where he studiedWestern intellectual and cultural history and depth psychology, graduating with an A.B. cum laude in 1972. For ten years he lived and worked at Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California, studying with Stanislav Grof, Joseph Campbell, Gregory Bateson, Huston Smith, and James Hillman, later serving as Esalen’s director of programs and education. He received his Ph.D. from Saybrook Institute in 1976 with a dissertation on LSD psychotherapy, psychoanalysis, and spiritual transformation.
From 1980 to 1990, he wrote The Passion of the Western Mind, a narrative history of Western thought from the ancient Greek to the postmodern which became a best seller and continues to be a widely used text in universities throughout the world. In 2006, he published Cosmos and Psyche:
Intimations of a New World View, which received the Book of the Year Prize from the Scientific and Medical Network in the UK. Formerly president of the International Transpersonal Association, he is on the Board of Governors of the C. G. Jung Institute of San Francisco. In addition to his teaching at CIIS, he has been a frequent lecturer at Pacifica Graduate Institute in Santa Barbara, and gives many public lectures and seminars in the U.S. and abroad.
CLARA FRANCESCA is a multi-lingual, international touring “philosopher of the heart making art”, as a playwright, actor, director, musician, producer, speech consultant and teaching artist. She holds a double Bachelors Degree in Laws & Biomedical Sciences as a graduate of Monash University in Melbourne, Australia. An inaugural alumni member of New York City’s SITI Company’s Conservatory she has worked with Anne Bogart, Roger Hendricks Simon, Tony Greco, Mary Overlie, Bill T. Jones, Laura Sheedy, Tom Nelis, Barney O’Hanlon, Darron West, Robert Woodruff, Tina Landau, Chuck Mee, Belinda Mello, Moises Kaufman, and the Martha Graham Studio, specializing in Suzuki, Viewpoints, and Alexander Technique. Teaching Artist credits include NY TownHall, East Village Phoenix Ensemble fr. Jean Cocteau Rep, Acting Antics, Australian Shakespeare Company. Clara has been a two-time guest adjudicator for the Mildura Eisteddfod Speech & Drama Festival, and Victorian Debating Association. Awards include Best Actress Fairfax Melbourne Arts Centre for self-devised solo play, Best Performance SaraSolo International Festival, Best Actress two-time nominee Independent New York Theater Awards, Dante Alighieri Society three-time winner, Alliance Francaise Poetry two-time winner, recipient of the Dame Joan Sutherland Australian American Association Scholarship for Artistic Excellence and co-lead in multiple films, including Cannes Film Festival Distribution Market recipient. She is a former Victorian Actors’ Benevolent Trust Committee Member. Clara has parlayed these experiences into a successful speech coaching business with an impressive client portfolio over fourteen years from C-suite executives to UN interns, from five year olds to seventy. Clara specializes in speech-anxiety reduction and fostering people with the confidence to walk into any room and share their authentic voice. Clara continues to act in all mediums, notable IMDBcredits and is a featured voiceover artist with household names Salvatore Ferragamo, Audible Books, Pokémon and Shiseido www.clarafrancesca.com
Scientist, psychophysiologist, executive vice president and director of research at HeartMath Institute, member of the Global Coherence Steering committee and project coordinator of GCI’s Global Coherence Monitoring System.
Rollin McCraty, Ph.D., director of research at the HeartMath Institute, is a professor at Florida Atlantic University. McCraty is a psychophysiologist whose interests include the physiology of emotion. One of his primary areas of focus is the mechanisms by which emotions influence cognitive processes, behavior, health and the global interconnectivity between people and Earth’s energetic systems. He has been with HeartMath Institute since its founding in 1991 by Doc Childre. He has worked closely with Childre to develop HMI’s research goals and has been instrumental in researching and developing the HeartMath System of tools and technology.
McCraty and the members of his research team have worked in joint partnership with research groups at Stanford University, Claremont Graduate University, Dalhousie University in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Prince Sultan Cardiac Center in Saudi Arabia and the University of Lithuania among many others.
He has been interviewed for many feature articles in publications that include Prevention, Natural Health, Men’s Fitness and American Health magazines, and has appeared in television segments for CNN Headline News, ABC World News Tonight, ABC’s Good Morning America, NBC’s Today Show, PBS’s Body & Soul and the Discovery Channel. He has been featured in many documentary films, including I Am, The Truth, The Joy of Sox, The Power of the Heart, Solar Revolution, and The Living Matrix among others.
McCraty’s critical research on heart rate variability and heart-rhythm coherence has gained international attention in the scientific community and is helping to change long-held perceptions about the heart’s role in health, behavior, performance and quality of life.
He is one of the primary creators of the Global Coherence Initiative and the principal designer of the Global Coherence Monitoring System and its international network of magnetic field sensor sites. Related to this, McCraty heads up HMI and GCI researchers investigating the relationship between human and geomagnetic field environments and the interconnectedness of and communication among all living systems. They also investigate how these fields act as central synchronizing signals within the body, carry emotional information and serve as key mediators of energetic interactions between people and living systems.
McCraty is a member of the American Autonomic Society, Pavlovian Society, National Association for Psychological Science, Association for Applied Psychophysiology and Biofeedback and Society for Scientific Exploration.
His studies, research and extensive professional articles have appeared in numerous journals, including the American Journal of Cardiology, Journal of the American College of Cardiology, Stress Medicine and Biological Psychology. He contributes periodically to the Global Advances in Health and Medicine journal.
Transcript:
Rollin McCraty 0:05
Well, as it turns out, whenever you’re the heartbeat, you have the current flows in the body. They also radiate magnetic fields, I mean, produce magnetic fields, which easily radiate right through the skin and out into the environment around us. Now, how do I know that? Well, let’s take a different device called a magnetometer.
Rollin McCraty 0:24
Which measures magnetic fields out here in space in front of the body and measure the hearts magnetic field. Yeah, and I think relevant to what you guys are talking about on your interviews and shows a lot is to also through those same years is when a lot of our natural kindness and compassion and stuff kind of gets beat out of us. So I just kind of use that as a backdrop or an analogy for what I mean, to where, you know, we start evolving to where it makes more sense, even for our own. Many, many studies bear out what I’m about to say here, that it’s really collaborate collaborating with others and being kind and compassionate is the best for our own careers, and certainly for our relationships. That was just enough for you even invited me this. I was just reading something that what women want most in men is kindness.
Clay Boykin 1:16
Hello, my name is Clay Boykin, and I am in search of the new compassionate male. I believe in the midst of these incredible times of change. A new compassionate male is emerging. As the new archetype in this podcast is intended to give voice to both men and women on the overarching topic of compassion consciousness in men.
Dennis Tardan 1:41
Hello, world it’s me Dennis and Welcome to In Search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host and I’m here with the founder and my partner, Clay Boykin Hello, Clay. Hey, Dennis, how you doing? Great. Good. Today we have and I’m thrilled to say Dr. Roland McCrady. Dr. McCrady is the director of research for the Heart Math Institute, an organization that I knew many, many years ago lost track of, and I’m anxious to hear what he’s got to share with us today. He’s also a professor at Florida Atlantic University. And he is a psycho physiologist. And he studies and he studies the physiology of emotion.
Rollin McCraty 2:26
Oh, welcome, Roland, thank you for joining us today. Oh, it’s great to be here. It was right there. Great to rediscover clay. I think we probably met. I don’t know. 1820 years ago, maybe something? So I think so. I was with Motorola at the time. In Austin. I think y’all were doing some work with Motorola. Maybe in Florida, and work for a few places actually a few places during that era. Yeah. And I had the occasion to fly out and, and spend a little time and, and then come back. And I always remember that. Yeah. You know, I’m an ex Motorola, my person myself. That’s right. And were you in Phoenix? No, I was a communications engineer. So I was a field engineer. I was I went out and fix the stuff, you know, for police fire departments when the locals couldn’t, you know, I was that guy that. Got it? Well, I’m a little semiconductor guy. So I put the stuff in the stuff that you fixed. Yeah.
Dennis Tardan 3:24
Yeah. How wonderful. And I’m a consumer. So Motorola has happened to be in as I pick this right out. This is a Motorola phone. So I’m a consumer I this is this is the great great grandchild of all the work that you guys have done. Well, unfortunately, wow. Maybe not, unfortunately. But Motorola is now owned by a Chinese company, I think, ah, well see, as so much of what we’re doing, what a time to be alive. Roland, I, you know, when we’re when we talk about, there’s so much so much, really learning and relearning and rediscovering. And so what I want to start is I want to start about what psycho physiology? Could you please? How do you say that at a cocktail party? What do you how do you how do you describe your field?
Rollin McCraty 4:16
Well, it’s really understanding the I guess I could say it this way, the interface between how we feel how we think and feel, and what goes on in the activity in our bodies. You know, that’s the psycho part. Right? Right feelings, behaviors and physiology. You could say the underlying activity in our brain and nervous system and hormonal system. But, you know, our research is really saying that you can’t quite look at it that way, because it’s just as much as what’s going on in our thoughts, feelings, intuitions, yes, that are really driving the activity in our body and our nervous system and our hormonal system. So it’s kind of a different way of thinking of it, but that’s really What I would say the data really, really suggests it’s really what’s going on I, I don’t know how wide your audience is here, but I tend to call these are energetic systems. Yeah, you know, the vibrations, because they’re actually they are, you just can’t put an emotion or a thought or an intuition under a microscope.
Dennis 5:17
Right. But when when we, you know, when we talk about string theory, and we talk about the work that everything is a vibration that if matter and energy can, can be interchanged, then the vibrations there are what creates whatever we, you know, look upon it collapses. So, how could they not be interchanged? Well, right.
Rollin McCraty 5:38
Yep. Lot. Yeah, in the modern world, but there’s still a lot of people that kind of the blinders on?
Dennis 5:43
Well, yeah, there were a lot of people that had the blinders on with Copernicus or with I mean, this is these are all the things that we’re learning. One of the things that clay and I talk about is that, that radio waves existed before an instrument happen to detect
Rollin McCraty 6:01
blood. Absolutely. Right. I mean, and so much of what we know, from my perspective, what we discover and and there’s certainly great advances going on in material science and technology and all that no question. But you know, our fundamental, really understandings of how the universe and life especially life works, there hasn’t been any significant advance in over 100 years.
Dennis 6:24
That’s exciting. So what impelled you, what impelled you to go in the direction of this from being a motorway engineer, here, you are a motorized roller engineer, you’re, you’re out there, you’re out there working. But there was an impelling to get you in this direction?
Rollin McCraty 6:47
Well, that’s a long story. But I think even before most of my engineering, you know, times, I was military and in the university, Nebraska, and then Motorola. And there was always something in me. Even back to high school, I was a kid who was building Heathkit, radios and transmitters. And you know, in Junior High in high school through that era, and I kind of grew up. My grandfather was a small town mechanic, right? So I from a very early age grew up in that kind of world. And so I was always asking questions, like, well, what is a magnetic field anyway? And nobody could ever answer that. I mean, they give you formulas, and which I’ve forgotten most of now, to be honest. But yeah, but describing the behavior of them. And we’re really good at that. And we can make radio waves carry information, and like we didn’t Motorola still do. But the point I was gonna, well, there’s two questions that I think you’re addressing there. One is what we discover and a lot of things is really mimicking what we biology already does. If that makes sense. It’s we’re talking about radio waves. Well, as it turns out, in some of our work shows that we are broadcasting, radio waves and those waves, not radio waves, but electromagnetic waves, and that those waves carry information, just like we would use on a cell phone. So a lot of what we discover is really, why nature is already figured out and doing much more efficiently than than the technology we invent to try and mimic what’s already going on. So that would
Clay Boykin 8:25
say that there’s a field around us.
Rollin McCraty 8:28
Well, there is.
Clay Boykin 8:29
I want to explain that to me. I mean, I can’t touch it.
Rollin McCraty 8:33
Yeah, well, I’ll do that. But to finish your other question. So I was I had a good time at Motorola don’t get me wrong, but there was always a deeper something right? And I wasn’t quite, I guess wired to care enough to play the the male I guess you could say game especially for this and the corporator thing. So I actually left that world. When I first I went to Miami still working for Motorola. In another context, I supposed to oversee the installation of a country wide communication system in Colombia. And that fell through actually found out many years later why that fell through after I’d already been hired to do shop. But that’s another story. And after that, I, you know, my interests read, I found a book that was talking that was actually about the field called radionics, which is a kind of a more different perspective on biological fields and wet Ray waves and stuff. And that got me intrigued. And that’s kind of what got me into the study of consciousness. And so I moved I packed up my stuff and moved to California to get a degree in consciousness studies, one of the first degrees and the first universities that gave degrees in at a small accredited university actually ended up being here in Boulder Creek, California. And then that got me into you know, meditation, that kind of things and I won’t go through the whole story. But then let’s just say while I get through that, that that crowd of people was part of the group that introduced spirulina to the world. You may have heard of that. But it’s a Super Bowl.
Dennis 10:12
Yes, it’s a superfood, isn’t it? Yeah, you
Rollin McCraty 10:14
can actually live on it. And that got proven many times. And so this, this kind of opened my heart a little bit, I think you could say to what yours were these sort of in the 1970s? Late 70s. Okay, good. All right. And the early 80s was the spirulina thing. And, and as life unfolded, actually, National Enquirer did a cover story on spirulina. And anyway, we went from a company selling about 100 150,000 a month and this stuff through the health food stores and consumers. And thanks to I think I personally wrote about $20 million dollars in business in the next two weeks. So it was a, you know, just way, huge jump. That’s its own story. I don’t want I don’t want to go into all that how we pull that off. But the point of the reason I wanted to share this, the history was we took the profits of that. And because we really were a motive to feed the world’s hungry populations, why we were doing this because I could care less about it otherwise, frankly. So we took the profits of that and went to Southern California, out in the middle of the desert, and proved you could actually grow spirulina and in the middle of a desert and feed the world’s hungry populations, you can set these up locally and problem solved, right? Way ahead of our time. I mean, we had these giant solar powered spray dryers and things to process it, it was all there, it all worked. And that went absolutely nowhere. In terms of solving hunger problems. In hindsight, you know, I talked about that when my idealism bubble got popped, you know, here we are, you know, I mean that because I even through, you know, my other studies and practices, you know, they probably need to see here, I was grounded enough in my electrical engineering side of things that I never got too far into the wacky stuff. Right? If that makes sense. Yeah, I was, I was always pretty grounded through it. But anyway, what I, through that era, you know, we talked about consciousness, you know, it’s really all about consciousness and done and on and on. And so after that experience, that became a felt knowingness, if I could say it that way more than a concept. And so basically, after that experience, and realizing how it was blocked, it was really consciousness problems. It was people, you know, leaders of countries and things. I basically said, well, heck with this humanitarian stuff, I’m gonna go make money again. My dad, so I started a company in electrostatics, and kind of went into that field and, and we grew to a multimillion dollar company, and just a very short time, two or three years. And that was a fun ride to I had a great time through that. And, but there was still that deeper, yearning, you know, of kind of think what I incarnated with more, probably more likely, you know, looking back, even into my childhood, that I really wanted to do something, you know, better, better the world, not just my own life. And so another sports car in a driveway wasn’t kind of doing it. And so, then I met duck children. Well, I kind of vowed to myself that I’m not going to get really involved in this humanitarian type things or, you know, doing good for the world. Unless it’s something that can really shift consciousness, you know, it people in a mass scale, because otherwise, I might as well go have a good life and make lots of money. And
Dennis 13:48
exactly, I mean, when you talk about shifting consciousness, let’s take this smartphone, no, no. Technology has ever been adopted as quickly. As as the smartphone has from from not being there to how quickly people are. So that was a shift in consciousness. Right? So a shift in consciousness from from a mechanical standpoint.
Rollin McCraty 14:14
No, that’s not how I mean it. I’m talking about something quite different. Let me let me give you another example. Please. I used to say not that many years ago that I’d read this you know, in some papers and things that with 10% of the world’s military budget that every every human being on planet Earth, could be fed, have clean water educated and have housing at least basic all their basic needs met exactly 10% of what we spend on more and bombs and that kind of nonsense, right? The bucket could never find the reference until about three years ago when I met cilia Silla elsewhere, they he was actually been nominated for three but three Nobel Peace Prizes. And in fact, I’ve got her book laid out here this business plan for peace. She’s going to be a speaker at one of our upcoming events here. Wonderful. And but what that was really neat, because she did the actual the hardcore math and work on it. And I was when I was saying 10%, I was wrong. It’s far less than 10%. Wow, is this not a problem in consciousness? So it’s not technology. We don’t need another iPhone, or smartphone, or we have everything right now and have had for years that would solve these problems. That is clearly a problem in human consciousness. So it makes sense. Does that help give you what I’m talking about?
Dennis 15:41
Absolutely. It absolutely does. Because Because if this is wonderful, all right, continue, continue. Okay.
Rollin McCraty 15:50
So anyway, it’s, you know, our own growth and how we are able to self regulate, and really be more inclusive and compassionate and kind. And
Dennis 16:00
that’s why we’re in search of right fi.
Clay Boykin 16:03
It absolutely is, you know, we’ve been, for the past two years, we’ve been talking to men and women all over the world. And, you know, that’s why we call it in search of the new compassionate male. I may be an idealist. But I think that and I believe that underneath all of the negative things that we’re seeing out in the world, that there’s an undercurrent of compassion, and that there’s a shift that’s coming in, we’re in the midst of where combat compassion, consciousness is going to going to rise up. And that’s why I was particularly interested in talking with you to compare notes on which what you think about that?
Rollin McCraty 16:47
Well, we have an annual event that we do on one of our projects called the Global coherence initiative. And the title of it is the rise of collective compassion. That’s in March, three days, three, half days, march 18 19th. And 20th, I believe, but
Dennis 17:02
both virtually and on site.
Rollin McCraty 17:04
Yeah, we’re having to do we used to do these as big gatherings. We used to go to Vida buddy to Cancun, and they were great events that we had down there just be about our eight years, but the last year, and this year, we’re having to virtually because of the obviously the current pandemic era here right now.
Clay Boykin 17:21
Wow. So HeartMath Institute, orchestrates and puts that on globally. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
Rollin McCraty 17:28
So which is part of our mentioned global coherence initiative, which is one of our projects. I don’t know how wide you guys want to get here. But I
Clay Boykin 17:38
think I want to I think I want to go there. Yeah. Somewhere along the line, I want to look
Rollin McCraty 17:42
at let me let me tie this back in now to your question. You asked me a few minutes ago. Clay. You know, when you asked me about we radiate fields. Absolutely. So it’s, sometimes people push back on this. And it’s just the absolute Craziest thing. One of the books on my bookshelf back here is a book on by electromagnetism. And there’s a drawing in it from 1863, where people had actually externally measured the fields of the body and had it right. So it’s not like this is something I invented, right? I mean, every hospital has equipment to measure what’s called mcg? Well, let me let me back up. We put electrodes across the body to measure your heartbeat electrocardiogram or on your head to measure brainwaves or the EEG, what those devices are literally measuring its current flow. Right there differential amplifiers, I probably you know what I mean, by that?
Clay Boykin 18:39
Well, I was in marketing, so maybe not
Rollin McCraty 18:44
an electronics background, but
Dennis 18:47
just just just nod when Yes, yes, of course. Of course. I know. differential amplifiers all the time, of course.
Rollin McCraty 18:55
Basically, you’re measuring the flow of electricity, right. That’s really what it that’s why it’s called the electrocardiogram or electroencephalograph for measuring brainwaves. So when I were there, this is physics 101. I mean, whenever you have a flow of electrical current, you create a magnetic field. Right? So and the heartbeat is by far the largest source of rhythmic electrical, magnetic magnetic energy in the body. So we measure the heartbeat and millivolts and you measure brainwaves in micro volts in order magnitude. Wow, later, right. So I let’s use our cell phone analogy. If you held Joseph’s I’ll hold mine up here. We got one, two. So cell phones work indoors, right?
Clay 19:37
Yes.
Rollin McCraty 19:39
Well, those invisible waves are going through the wall. Well, it’s the magnetic component that’s going through the wall. Right, that’s what we’re using to carry your voice or the pitcher, you know, whatever. We’re modulating that signal. Someone I know a little bit about from my old days, right and my original career Well, as it turns out, whenever you’re the heartbeat You have the current flows in the body. Do they also radiate magnetic fields, I mean, produce magnetic fields which easily radiate right through the skin and out into the environment around us. Now, how do I know that? Well, let’s take a different device called a magnetometer which measured magnetic fields out here in space in front of the body and measure the hearts magnetic field. Now, every most large hospitals have devices called MC G’s, Magneto cardiogram, where you can, you don’t have, you don’t touch the body with anything physical, you’ve measured the field of the body. Now, I’m not going to go into why that’s better for certain why hospitals have them. But just, I don’t think it’d be that interesting right now. But point is, every time the heart beats, we radiate a magnetic field, and you can back up that magnetometer about three feet before you lose the capacity to detect the Hartsfield, you take the same sensor you back up about it, you can measure also brainwaves externally without touching, you back up about an inch before you lose. Right, the capacity to detect that signal. So clearly the hearts the big player here, it wasn’t this guy just goes back into the 90s. In our research here at the Heart Math Institute, using about the same techniques I would have used back in my Motorola days to decode or demodulate the information being carried by in this case, a radio wave to carry the signal, he has them the same thing, just applied those to the heart signal. And lo and behold, you can demodulate and see the information patterns carried by the field. And only that you can actually hook yourself up and get the right equipment and watch this, these frequency patterns change in real time as we change our emotional state.
Clay Boykin 21:42
Now, now, is that is that anything like biofeedback?
Rollin McCraty 21:47
Well, it’s we can take that we actually develop the first commercial consumer level biofeedback. So yes, yes and no. Right. So biofeedback is big is a kind of a term, right, measuring something and feeding back the result. So looking in a mirror and smiling as a form of biofeedback, you know, so what underlies that infer those information being patterns that we are literally broadcasting that we are radiating to the field into our we can call it your personal field environment has to do with the what’s called heart rate variability. And so what that is, is and you would remember this about we taught probably back when you were here many years ago, clay but in a healthy person, our heart rate changes with every heartbeat. So most people know what heart rate is right to simply how many times is the heartbeat in a minute. But in reality, our heart rate changing with each and every heartbeat. So the time drill always vary in time between each consecutive pair of heartbeats. And that actually is a way that that physiology encodes information is the space between things.
Clay 23:02
So there’s really no such thing as a steady heartbeat, not not
Rollin McCraty 23:05
in a healthy person. In fact, if you if your heart rate becomes metronomic, like that is one of the strongest indicators of serious future health problems. Wow. And that predicts things like cancer, heart, sudden cardiac death, metabolic, a whole list of things, this is not a good thing. And so physiologically speaking, it’s a you can think of it as a simple form of Morse code. Of course, physiology is a lot more complex than, you know Long’s and shorts, but it’s the same one same process. And that, so that heart rhythm, this is what underlies our heart rhythm, the patterns of that this is going back to our earlier work in the 90s, again, is the most reflective of a person’s emotional state. So our heart rhythm pattern becomes very chaotic looking when we’re feeling anxious or frustrated or impatient. Not compassionate, right? Whereas it what was really surprising in a way back again, going back to the early 90s, in our work was that the our bodies and our physiology literally shifts into a completely different functional or operational mode. When we’re feeling heartfelt feelings, I use that word that’s thinking doesn’t work. You can think appreciation, you know, thank you for opening the door for me. But when you feel it, it’s a very, that’s what drives physiology is the emotion of it the feeling. But when we feel things like appreciation, or compassion, which are all part of the love spectrum and my way of thinking that shifted the physiology in a completely different mode that we actually figured out what to call it took us a few years, we ended up calling coherence which has become a term all over the place now in terms of physiological functioning. And so when we’re, as it turns out, we actually have what is called A resonant frequency our bodies do. Right. And when we’re operating in it, that actually ends up being the same pattern that we were seeing when people are feeling things like compassion and appreciation and so on. We switch modes into a highly opera into a highly efficient functional state. So then that also mirrors the frequency literal frequencies, we’re broadcasting and radiating out into the environment. There’s a mathematical relationship between the rhythms of the heart and the information in the field. I hope that made sense.
Clay Boykin 25:32
Okay. I think I’m with you. A coherence. First thing I think of is, oh, my heart rate slowed down and it’s you know, and I’m calm and collected. But that’s, it’s more than that.
Rollin McCraty 25:47
And you’re talking about relaxation, relaxation, okay? Alright, so let’s talk about the word coherence, you know, you look it up in the dictionary, the first definition usually has to do with like, now we’re having a conversation. And I’m hopefully I’m putting my words together in a string and in a way that conveys a meaning past all the individual words, in other words as a coherent argument, or a coherent statement, and if I had a little bit too much to drink to this morning, and I muttering nonsense, that you would say, I am not coherent, I’m incoherent, right and go here, exactly. But that’s, that’s kind of the common people level of it. But it’s really similar in fit science and physics and coherence as a concept use pretty universally in science and physics now. And, in general, we use the word coherence when we’re talking about complex systems, like us, like EA, or even a cell is a compact system living system. So within the physics and science context, coherence has a lot of related meanings that are kind of umbrella, it means that the parts of a system have to be in communication. So it implies connectedness and correlation among the parts, right, because they have to somehow talk to each other to be working together in a harmonious way to give rise to a function that’s beyond the sum of the parts. And it also implies energy efficiency in a coherent. So we use coherence if we’re talking about the cosmos, you know, that’s a common term right? Or, certainly, if we’re talking about our physiology, so to have it to be in a coherent physiological state or heart rate, heart rhythm, coherence, as we now call it, that means a lot is going on in our bodies, that we’ve actually shifted into a more efficient functional state. So we’re also now vibrating if you will oscillate in or at our natural resonant frequency. So in other words, the heart long brain blood, blood pressure rhythms are all synchronizing synchronous, doing less work to get more done.
Dennis 28:00
Got in some bats where and
Rollin McCraty 28:02
the heart and brain come into synchrony as well, the activity of the
Dennis 28:05
heart and rink and that’s where your instruments and the work that you’re doing at the Heart Math Institute, are designed to do?
Rollin McCraty 28:13
What? Yes, so that was early, all the stuff I’m talking about now goes back into the 90s, in our work, so that once we really understood the physiology in this new functional state, I mean, that was what we have. It’s always been there. Sure. I mean, we’re always can we heard incoherent and people been in the states all along? That we were just to kind of the first look at it more deeply and say, wow, look what happens, you know, and by the way, I’m kind of rambling here, but at that time, when you search the medical literature, I think I could find three papers that had to do with what we would think of as positive emotions. Why 1000s on things like stress, anxiety, depression, right? Three
Dennis 28:51
on what a waste
Rollin McCraty 28:54
on positive now that’s changed. You know, there’s a whole new movement called positive psychology and all this going on out there.
Dennis 29:00
If we study if we study why people keep keep saying, that is so valuable. Yeah.
Rollin McCraty 29:08
Alright, so anyway, the point is not very few researchers that actually looked at what’s going on when we feel good. It was all focused on the negative side, right. Anyway, once we identified the state, and it was so clear that we naturally go into this ops dysfunctional mode called coherence is optimal state. When we feel good, you know, you walk out you may not say this, but you walk out the door to yourself, in other words, in the morning, and it’s one of those days, you know, the blue skies and the perfect disco Hakata What a beautiful day. You’re feeling appreciation of how I mean, you may not think that and you’re naturally going into this more coherent state.
Clay 29:55
That kind of like being in the zone. Well, it would be what underlies
Rollin McCraty 29:59
Right. Is that makes it that makes sense clay?
Clay Boykin 30:05
It does it does. I just, every once in a while I hit a straight golf ball, it feels so good.
Rollin McCraty 30:13
Because you’re a golfer you retake up your cones, parents practices, because it’s huge a lot of golfers have find if they get coherent before they take the shot. You know, there’s there’s over 400 studies now and people when they learn how to get independent of us that have followed up on our research, that we feel better and we perform better whether it’s golf or Olympic athletes. You know, whatever tennis I mean, the list goes on a lot of professional athletes use it now as well.
Dennis 30:41
Rollin I want to go back to this, this idea that it takes less if that we could solve so much of the world’s problems with less than 10% of the debt, the defense budgets? What is between that, that solution and where we are now? And how can what you’re doing and the things that that we’re doing the science get us to that that very, very same place,
Rollin McCraty 31:12
and evolution of consciousness. And so from my perspective, consciousness is evolving,
Dennis 31:18
right? So we are if we are going through, are we because it feels to me that we’re that whatever the imperative was to go from the chimpanzee in the bonobo to the hominid to the something is happening now that there is an evolutionary imperative. Something is going on that we’re going into. And it is an evolution in consciousness. And that’s where it where it’s happening.
Rollin McCraty 31:44
Yeah, and if that word is kind of strange or unfamiliar, consciousness, colored awareness, you know, or maturity, right? Yes. Because they’re all kind of interchangeable in a way.
Dennis 31:58
So we’re in we’re in our, in our human species. We’re at like, like, like, I don’t know, where you would be? Are we in the teens? Are we’re in our teens as a species? Are we are we evolving, that we can evolve into?
Rollin McCraty 32:15
We’re probably not quite to our teens yet. You know, I’ve never used this analogy for a bit. Think about it when we are cute little kids. So I grew up in the Midwest at a time, you know, that’s very different than I think these days, you know, and there was a period I come from or how old I was that the backyard was our boundary. Right. And then we as we matured, and we developed a certain level of self regulation. Right, like, be home by dark. It’d be literally exactly right, then the block became the boundaries, you know, an off playing with the other kids in their places. And Matt and, and then there was the next boundary with the next level of maturity and capacity to self regulate was now, you know, you look before you cross the street, so you don’t get ran over and, you know, kind of basic stuff, but it really was maturing, you know, and awareness. Then, in my days, the town became the next boundary. Certainly, right. Probably same for you guys, your
Dennis 33:19
neighbors looking out for one another. If I did something, and that was reported back, it was well, yeah,
Rollin McCraty 33:25
that that too. But the point is, I’m making we are evolved, or our awareness was evolving. Absolutely. Right. And for a lot of people we get we graduate high school, or we great college that kind of stops. Right? If you get my where I’m going with that?
Clay Boykin 33:41
Yeah, it’s like going back to high school reunion 40 years later, and pick up right where you left off.
Rollin McCraty 33:48
Yeah, and I think relevant to what you guys are talking about on your interviews and shows a lot. It’s also obviously those same years is when a lot of our natural kindness, and compassion and stuff kind of gets beat out of us. Yes. If you will, you know, and especially later in that development process. So I just kind of use that as a backdrop or an analogy for what I mean, to where, you know, we start evolving to where it makes more sense, even for our own. Many, many studies bear out what I’m about to say here, that it’s really collaborate collaborating with others and being kind. And compassionate is the best for our own careers. And certainly for our relationships. I’m just in for you even invited me this. I was just reading something. What Women Want most in men is kindness.
Dennis 34:42
It’s It’s amazing. It’s extraordinary what we can do and what I love about that, and what play and I have certainly experienced at all, is that it’s there. It’s an it’s our nature, but it gets I love the way you were saying it was beaten out of us or it was layered over or whatever and it’s De construction that gets it back to our natural state, which is, which is love.
Rollin McCraty 35:06
Yeah, so we have to unlearn a lot of what we lost I I’ve had to, you know
Dennis 35:12
me to that so much of that has been, has been part of that. So where are you now rollin at? Tell me what what your your work is in helping to elevate the consciousness or to or to bring into the coherence?
Rollin McCraty 35:30
Well the reason I got involved 30 Some years ago after infection sold my electrostatics company for way less than it was worth kind of quickly exit and do what I do now was met the founder of HeartMath, Doc Childress, his name. And so I’ve got to tell you the real story here of how it all began, I was he was on the East Coast and North Carolina area, and I was back there doing some work from our company on their research triangle area. And, and I was introduced to some mutual friends through the earlier years, I was talking about the consciousness studies and all that. And this guy sounds, this character sounds interesting, I’ll go pop over spend an hour meet the guy. And three days later, I left true story actually. And through that, he was talking about his history. And we had a lot of similar backgrounds, both, you know, from being in our early years poor, mean race and poor families and farming communities. And that mine was in Missouri, Nebraska, that area, and all the kind of school of hard knocks that we’ve kind of gone through, if you will. And what he had, he had studied very deeply, a lot, a lot of things that was similar to me, it just got a lot deeper than I had. And it was talking about the heart, not just as a metaphor, you know, and through my meditation practices, we know we were meditating with energy to the heart chakra and all this stuff. Yeah. You know, as I was very adept at that to through those practices, but it was never really taking the heart seriously, as in the way I would tend to describe it. Now. We to diverge a little bit here to really answer your question, we have the physical heart, but we also have what we now call the energetic heart. And I’m saying that’s real. And we’ll structure it’s just at the vibrational level, that thing we can’t yet put under the microscope. And that that’s the bridge of the transceiver to use my communications language, to what I hear I just call it the large or larger self that’s vibrating at a higher dimension and literally in a higher dimension. Sure, different dimension of density is the way I really think of it. But But anyway, a lot of people would call it their higher self or their spirit or their soul. Sure. Just saying, I’m here to say that’s real. And the heart is the bridge to that. And I’ll go as far as saying in my own personal experience and our research, that that’s an eye of a needle that you just can’t bypass. Right. And it is that it is really getting the the mind to finally surrender to that other level of intelligence that elevates awareness and consciousness that gets us to rise above our judgments and our biases and our kind of 3d level of consciousness. It’s a long story made really short there but
Dennis 38:34
but compelling to me, because it makes me want to know more. That’s what I because when you talk when you talk about the that the heart having intelligence, and it having it at that there is an intelligence there and that we tap into it. We’ve made then that is real.
Rollin McCraty 38:54
Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, and that is what elevates consciousness is tapping into that flow of information.
Dennis 39:02
So we could could we say that compassion, the when we’re searching for compassion, we’re searching for it both in ourselves and searching for it out because there is value in that search?
Rollin McCraty 39:13
Yeah, so what opens? So I think of this. This new mechanism, or this network, I was just talking about very much like radio systems. I can’t help it. I’m an ex radio guy, right? Yep. But it really is like that, that it’s a signaling system between different dimensions, if you will, I mean, that magnetic fields are all around you right now in the room, you’re in Right. Clay and Dennison, hear all the cell phone conversations? So when we get our phone out, how do we get the information we want, we tune the receiver to be resonant with the frequency of interest. And as soon as we do that, we transfer the energy information and amplify it up and we’re having our phone call. I’m just saying we work the same way between our larger self right And so that level of our own undivided wholeness is another way of saying it is in communication with the through via the energetic heart right down to the DNA level to all the cells. And I mean, how are we talking to anyway, when we go deeper and talk to ourselves inside? Yeah. It’d be good. I’m not talking about mental chatter. Now I’m talking about those deeper core understandings of who we are and what we’re here to be and who we really are. And
Dennis 40:31
I love having these conversations, Roland and clay because the, the, I know that this conversation might not have made a lot of sense to me before, but because of the depth of the learning in the studies that I’m doing, I’m gonna be able to see and I’m trying to think about this conversation in 50 years that would be very prosaic that they would that the people would be really talking about this the normal part of conversation, rather than something rather than something esoteric.
Rollin McCraty 41:05
Yeah. That reminds me I hadn’t thought about this in years that your comment. Before I tell you this story, though, I don’t want to lose the point that it is those heartfelt feelings of appreciation, compassion, kindness, care, love, that opens that channel that I’m talking about. So there, you can’t get through that I have the needle with the just the mind, you know, the judgments and the biases and sorting that the mind wants to do. But the story you just reminded me of, I’m actually an official mad scientist. True story, it’s I’ve got to somewhere. I’ve got it back here a few quite a few years ago, now. Maybe 567 years ago, Wired Magazine selected I think three maybe four what they considered mad scientists. They actually did have the whole senators pics page, they did cartoons. This is the clinic right here. But here’s the point that made your comment reminded me I have to be qualified to be a mad scientist. Because we had to be doing work that was kind of considered far out and kind of wacky. But a generation or two from now it’d be considered common sense. That’s what reminded me of that.
Dennis 42:22
Yeah. And that’s where I see this. And that’s where I see this going. I see that because the opportunity because when we look at something that is mad, and mad is spending less than 10% of the budget of the military that we have of destruction that could end up solving the all of the problems of poverty, that madness. It is, isn’t it? That’s a problem. You’re going to say we’re moving to sanity as opposed to being something outrageous that is that anyone looking at that would go That’s insane. Play you.
Clay 43:01
Yeah, so Okay, so we’ve been talking about the individual pretty much. And okay, so I’ve got a field around me. There’s something bigger going on, that you’re involved with. I want to hear about that.
Rollin McCraty 43:15
Okay. Alright. So I wanted to give that background that absolutely feels because, alright, so I can kind of go into this. So let me just tell you the evolution of our cliff notes version of our research, okay, so we can make your fields out here, we can take the information and see that it’s carrying information, probably about a whole lot more of emotions, but for sure about our emotional state. So what we’re feeling inside doesn’t stop at the scan. It’s we’re broadcasting it. And I think everybody knows that we can feel that from others.
Dennis 43:45
We’ve seen that you’ve walked someone walks into a room and fire the entire roster changes we know that we seen everyone’s experienced Yeah,
Rollin McCraty 43:55
we’ve intuitively we know that and I’ve seen it. So the next I’ll just give you the quick notes to the next step. In our research, you’ll say okay, well, that’s neat. So what does that have measurable effects on other people? And that was an easy question to answer actually, there’s multiple studies people want the hardcore research on all this published. In other words, our physiology is exquisitely tuned to receiving and responding to the the amplitude and frequencies of other biologically generated or fields. As we’re tuned each other or so are not only we radiating, we’re also receiving and miserably affected by others. Okay. You kind of already alluded to that Dennis, so that was probably yes. Alright, so now we’ll take it bigger. So that’s the living room level, right. Then, so then we got into I’m going to skip our intuition research. That’s a whole other topic maybe we can talk about another time. But that answer clays question. We that’s what this is where we get into That’s called the Global coherence Initiative, or GCI. And so we start to, we now have a global network of really ultra sensitive magnetometers that are specifically designed to measure the resonant frequencies of the vibrations in the Earth’s magnetic field. So we have these sites, I wish we didn’t have to do this ourselves. It’s really expensive and a real pain in the rear to do. But we’ve got sites one here in California, northern Canada, Saudi Arabia, Lithuania, New Zealand. I’m probably forgetting some but so this is this global network that we’re able to literally measure the the rhythms of the Earth is what the magnetic field. So let me give a little context here, when we have a proper there’s just too far away from it to reach right now. But think of the earth right, and it got the geomagnetic field, you know, thing, our compass is tuned into sure one pole, the South Pole, we all learned about that back in probably Junior High in our era. And, you know, if you remember back to when we were in grade school, or whatever it was, you got to dump iron filings. Hope you guys got to do that right on a glass plate. Yeah, you put your magnet under it, you move it around, and it was fun to play with it. And it visualizes the shape of the magnetic field. But here’s what I want to go one more level. If you think back, those iron filings lined up in lines. Right, it wasn’t just kind of black blob. They’re all so those are also visualizing not already seeing the shape of the field, depending on whether it’s a bar or a ball or whatever. Those are letting us see what are called magnetic field lines. Okay, or flux lines if we’re using engineering terms. But anyway, the Earth, the Earth’s magnetic field is Big Donut, or toroidal shape around the planet. But it goes out into space many, many 1000s of miles is the same way. Magnetic field lines. Now, here’s what we didn’t learn at least I didn’t back then is that you can pluck magnetic field lines, and they vibrate just like a guitar string. Really? Yeah. And it’s a great analogy. I mean, any stringed instrument abolishes guitar, you change the length of the string, the tension, it changes its vibration, right? It’s frequency, same way with Earth. So they’ve got really long magnetic field lines. So they have a lower frequency. Now what’s plucking these magnetic field lines, and the fact the science term for this is called field line resonances. Okay, so what’s plucking the strings is the solar wind rushing by, which is about a million miles per hour. And meanwhile, Earth is turning and so is the sun, right? In fact, Earth is within the magnetic field of the sun. Right? So there’s all these levels of fields, we live within fields within fields. Right, so the bank, the magnetic field, lights are vibrating. And so when we measured the frequency of these vibrating field lines down here on earth through our global network of magnetometers, the in frequency language, one of the primary resonant frequencies is a frequency called 0.1. Hertz, can answer cycle every 10 seconds. And guess what? The frequency of the human coherent heart rhythm is 0.1 0.1. I’m going to pause a minute, let that soak in. Okay, so part two, think back to Science class when we were back in middle school, or whatever it was. And we got to play with tuning forks, right? Or if you didn’t develop, everybody seen the examples, you’d have two tuning forks, the same tune to the same note, you tap one the other starts to magically vibrate. It’s demonstrating what’s called resonant coupling.
Clay Boykin 48:57
Oh, okay. I had that with my guitars.
Rollin McCraty 49:00
Absolutely. You can do a clocks on a wall guitars you via you can hit one the same note the other starts to vibrate right now. Absolutely resonant coupling. All that is showing is you can transfer energy and information. When systems vibrate at the same frequency. Same back to our cell phones, all those frequencies we tune if you guys are old enough to remember back when you have to turn knobs on radios. Oh, yeah, right, you’re you’re you’re literally moving the plates within a capacitor to change the resonant frequency that wants it, you hit the right frequency boom, you’re listening to your radio station or having your phone call. So that’s just the simple basics of with where our physiology is vibrating, oscillating at the same frequency as the primary frequency of the birth. It’s not a big jump to understand how we can be transferring energy and information from us to the to the to the bigger field. My making sense here you fall Yes, yes. Oh, Are we when we’re radiating our frequencies, love compassion versus, you know, impatience, anger, frustration that we’re feeding are not only feeding our local field that is coupling to the larger field. So all of humanity is now contributing to the larger global field, the information being carried by the larger field.
Clay Boykin 50:22
And so if this large population is vibrating the same, then we’re sending some stuff out. Yeah, well,
Rollin McCraty 50:30
we’re receiving it. And we’re radiating. So that next evolution that we’re talking about in consciousness, kind of one of the scenes here that for GCI, that’s kind of a naturally emerges, please become aware of what what are you feeding the field?
Dennis 50:45
Absolutely. Right. So I absolutely, so one
Rollin McCraty 50:49
of my calls to action, usually, for I get done with most presentations or talks, is, hey, pause real today and just ask yourself that what am I feeding the field is that part two of that is what we feed to feel matters.
Dennis 51:02
I love that. Because if that means that everything matters, that means that I can sit I can I can make a difference. By changing, I love the word mindful, because it gives me an opportunity to look at it rather than in a binary state, I get to look at it and in along the spectrum, that I can become more mindful, moving toward the one and moving in that direction to become more coherent.
Rollin McCraty 51:36
Yeah, I mean, mindful is a great term, and I back in what would have been 80s. For me, I studied mindfulness and practice that during that era. And you know, and it’s really great, because we’re being mindful, or mindfulness is really becoming more self aware of what we’re thinking and feeling and hopefully more objective about it. And as an observer, but I would also like to suggest, if I may, that, as we evolve a little more, that mindful term will probably fade away, and it’ll become more about being more heartful.
Dennis 52:08
I love that. Because that, really, that that. That brings us around to compassion. And it brings us around to be using this as a power and really to being a being able to to leverage it. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 52:27
well, exactly. So we have a lot more. I mean, you know, there’s so much 30 years of research, it’s hard to shove, cram 30 years of that into an hour here. But
Dennis 52:35
goodness know,
Rollin McCraty 52:38
kind of what it’s really important, I think, to understand that radio knob we were talking about, we have one inside of us. And we have a lot more capacity and power to tune our own dial than we think to align with our larger self and, and really become more energetic responded, energetically responsible for what we’re feeling thinking and what we’re radiating into the field. And there’s a lot of if you don’t want to do it, because you have to care for other people will do it for yourself.
Dennis 53:05
Exactly. But you know, you know, the thing that I find interesting, Roland is that you’re everything that I have studied from any of the any of the Masters in spirituality, any of the scientist says that they are talking about the same thing that you are you you’re you’re bringing this, you are applying the science and applying the science to what all the great teachers that I have, that I have ever studied, will either implying or directly saying,
Rollin McCraty 53:37
Yeah, you know, it’s interesting you say that it’s true. Absolutely. It’s also true in the scientific community. And I’ve had the honor, I’d say to meet a lot of pretty well known scientists over over my career, and we’ve had a lot of them have a visited here and kind of reminds me of a conference we had here on the question that was being discussed was it as our quantum processes involved in brain function and brain activity? So we had, you know, Roger Penrose was here, and Carl pre-boom and about 30, you know, similar names, right. And so they were here for about a week, and we had a lot of time to hang out at night, and you know, around the campfire in some cases and stuff and just talk and get to know each other. And it was so highly, David Bowman already passed away, but his main role was your contributor of his. And for example, in heaven having these kinds of discussions kind of like we’re having now he talked about a larger self that really guides and directs the physiology and all of these guys were, well, of course, it’s that way.
Rollin McCraty 54:51
It’s really true. I mean, you know, the really great minds and thinkers have absolutely no problem of discussion we’re having today. It’s kind of obvious to them You know that it’s really the, oh, I want to be kind here, but the scientists want to be is maybe, you know, you’re kind of climbing the ladder, and you’re really stuck in the dogma and religions. And to me, science has become the new religion and just as dogmatic as religion. Of course. Fortunately, I work in a nonprofit research center here, so I don’t, I don’t have to worry about tenure and don’t really, you know, have to play that game to the same same way. You know, the people who resist this kind of things, you know, they’re still stuck at that lower level, they haven’t really matured enough to their awareness to really understand that, you know, the I, to me, even from childhood, frankly, the idea that a lightning bolt hit a pond of mud, you know, millions of years ago, and we evolved into who we are now, against all the laws of thermodynamics, thermodynamics is just absolutely absurd. Yeah, I could never just never could, you know, and I know, all the models have, or not all but a lot of the models about, you know, self organization and all that. But even that falls apart with a little deeper thinking,
Clay 56:04
you know, I, this whole time, which keeps coming through my head is, you know, I work with men, I’ve got a mentor, if I got a network around the world, you know, how do we take this to action? You know, the guy that’s, you know, you don’t know about all this stuff, but he’s searching, you know, he’s got this hole and inside of them, and he’s trying to figure out, what do I do? How do I get unstuck?
Rollin McCraty 56:28
Well, that’s, that’s, I think you were one of the early adopters in a way. But that’s really why Heart Math exists. The Heart Math Institute is to provide practical research based not that that matters. But it’s a nice add on approaches, tools, techniques that we really can use to to really grow in our capacity to self regulate to have more control over our emotional diet and become more self aware and able to make Icom turnarounds. You know, I wouldn’t what I mean by that clay as a turnaround is somebody does something, you know, that frustrates us. You know, are we there goes that typical, almost automated, unconscious reaction, right? Frustration, impatience, anger, whatever that is. And the analogy I like to use, it’s like the trains leaving the station. You know, the trains pretty good at you know, it’s building up momentum. And I’ve actually had, I’m sure you’d have to the experience of that train gets too far down the track that emotional train I’m talking about. You’re sitting there watching going, Oh, shit. Oh, boy. There it goes. I see it happening. And I know the playout. And it happened. It is still it’s too far down the track. We can’t stop it and turn it around. That reminds
Clay Boykin 57:50
me. I should have pulled it up. It’s sitting away across over there on my bookshelf, is a little book called freeze frame
Rollin McCraty 57:58
is our first book your first book. Yeah, yeah. So but the whole point then when I say turnarounds is it takes a little bit of practice. But once that once that emotion starts building, and this is not about suppressing, that never works. But it’s about turning that energy around. And shifting that same energy, you know, into a neutral or with practice. It can even be appreciation, compassion, care, kindness, but and then that does nothing but benefit us, our immune system, our hormonal system, gets us into that coherent state, we’re able to think better, clearer, make better decisions. So just take some practice that, you know, most people just haven’t been taught.
Clay 58:40
Yeah. Well, hopefully some folks will listen to the podcast. And it’s getting out there. I’ve got, it’s being picked up in several places in Africa now. Wow. Congratulations. Yeah, I’m very, very happy with it. And I know your time is tight. And I want to invite you back, I’d love
Rollin McCraty 59:01
to this, I was fine. This is very different than those types of conversations.
Clay Boykin 59:05
Well, you know, I’m really trying to communicate, communicate, and, you know, probably about as many women watch, this has been. And same with my websites. You know, the stats show that sometimes there are more women on the website than there are men. You know, they’re looking for a resource for their man. And the HeartMath message is a very powerful one. And I’m really grateful that you took some time this afternoon. My pleasure, my pleasure. And please come back.
Rollin McCraty 59:38
Oh, just let me know when you don’t like to and we’ll find a time.
Clay Boykin 59:41
Great. Thank you so much, Roland.
Dennis 59:43
I love that you’re giving me the opportunity to exit the conversation at a higher level than I entered it at a higher level of consciousness. Roland, thank you, thank you for for this for this opportunity to to open my mind and to really to get into To My Heart and really to to explore that to be heartful. And because I can I can I can experience that now I can explore it and work into that place. Thank you. Thank you so much time. Clay thank you for for allowing me to be along this journey in search of the new compassionate male in myself and in you and in you rollin and to be able to see the beautiful examples that we have because we’re going on from here on so thank you everybody. Thank you for listening to podcasts and there will be more coming. So stay tuned. We will see you in search of the new compassionate male next time.
Clay Boykin 1:00:46
Check out the latest episode of In Search of the new compassionate mail on your favorite podcast Station.
Jerry Tello has appeared in Time, Newsweek, Latina and Lowrider magazines and has received many major awards including: the Maria Shriver’s Annual Advocate for Change award; the White House Champions of Change award; the Presidential Crime Victims Service award, presented by President Bill Clinton and Attorney General Janet Reno; two California Governor’s Awards and the Ambassador of Peace Award presented by Rotary international.
Jerry is considered an international expert in the areas of trauma, healing, men and boys of color, fatherhood, family strengthening, racial justice, racial healing, community peace and mobilization and culturally based violence prevention and intervention issues.
He is co-founder of the National Compadres Network. He has authored numerous articles, videos and curricula addressing the issues of Fatherhood, Male “Rites of Passage,” relationship and gang violence prevention, racial justice, teen fatherhood, pregnancy prevention, family strengthening, fatherhood literacy and community peace.
Jerry is the author of “A Fathers Love”, a series of children’s books, co-editor of Family Violence and Men of Color, a series of motivational health and healing CD’s and author of the recently released award winning book “Recovering Your Sacredness.”
Jerry is from a family of Mexican, Texan and (Koa-wilt-con) roots and raised in the south central, Compton areas of Los Angeles.
His book, VOICE MALE: The Untold Story of the Profeminist Men’s Movement, chronicles the transformation of men and masculinity through the pages of the magazine, bringing readers inside “one of the most important social justice movements most people have never heard of”—the anti-sexist men’s movement.
Rob speaks at colleges and universities around the U.S., and his essays on men and manhood have appeared in newspapers in every region of the country, as well as on websites including Ms., Women’s eNews, and Vday.
I know we’ve talked about some people describe the crisis and masculinity and we’re not hearing about, Well, the good news about compassionate man and men were wanting to change. But if we want to see men change, and if we want to have a culture that’s really inviting that change, then we have to be honest and open to identify situations where the danger is so acute, and the lack of identification of what’s going on is so under state.
Clay Boykin 00:53
Hello, my name is Clay Boykin, and I’m in search of the new compassionate male. Today I had the opportunity to have a conversation with Rob Oaken. Rob is the editor and publisher of voicemail magazine, that’s male spelled ma le, he’s also the former executive director of the men’s Resource Center for change. That’s one of the earliest men’s centers in North America. Rob has a book The title is voicemail, the untold story of the pro feminist movement. In it, he talks about one of the most important social justice movements, most people have never heard of the anti sexist men’s movement. Let’s join that conversation.
Dennis Tardan 01:37
Hello, World. It’s me, Dennis. And we are in search of the new compassionate male. I’m the co host of this podcast, and I’m here with the founder, Playboy can Hello, play.
Clay Boykin 01:50
Hello, Dennis. Boy, am I excited about this afternoon. Rob Oaken is with us. And Rob has been deeply involved. And that’s an understatement, with with men’s work at all different levels. And I wish we had five hours to talk but we only have about 15 minutes.
Dennis Tardan 02:11
Well, we’re let’s give this a start. And we’ll be we’ll be going out. Rob, welcome. Welcome to the podcast.
Rob Okun 02:17
Delighted to be here and to meet you about? Well, it
Dennis Tardan 02:20
is, you know, we have been in search of the new compassionate male, because we’ve been looking, we know that that our role, especially our role as older white men, we have and who are still in power, who still have 80% of all of the of the political and economic influence that it is our role, we have to come to the table, and you specifically have talked about in all of your writing and all of your, your advocacy about the role of the male in the feminist in the pro feminist movement. Do I have that? That understanding? And I’m just exactly, I wonder explore that today?
Rob Okun 03:04
Sure. That’s it. That’s a fair summary. If you want me to pick up from that I can or
Dennis Tardan 03:12
That’s exactly right. Up in big beep.
Rob Okun 03:15
Okay. Well, it’s true that there’s been this tension all along over the years between feminism and men. And to me, it’s a false flag, because the benefits of feminism are about equality for everyone. So, you know, just to put that aside at the outset that, that men who feel threatened by feminism aren’t really understanding what it is and the unfair advantages that we have had just by the, you know, this the chance that we arrived on the planet in male identified bodies, doesn’t mean that we’re ruling the roost, even as you say that, this this moment that we’re in where it feels to a lot of men that the nature given God given power to be in charge is somehow being threatened, as opposed to recognizing that it’s been an unfair situation. It’s been a imbalanced playing field, an unlevel playing field. And now we’re at it at a moment where if men can get out of our own way, and when I say that, I mean our, our grasping on to what was your our fear of what could be if we can find that middle ground, you know, in our own hearts between trusting that what’s ahead is healthy and helpful for us as male identified people, but that there’s richness to having the input and the experience and the voice of women, you know, in all conversations and in all walks of life, and we’re having this conversation on a day when first African American woman is being nominated to be an associate justice in the Supreme Court. So I just want to put out for men who are listening to this, who might be skeptical or just feeling a little tightness around someone who’s identifying himself as Pro feminist, we can talk about why I say that versus just feminists that get comfortable with the idea that equality is something that we’re all entitled to, and that feminism is simply the proposition that women and men and anyone else that however they describe themselves, or define themselves, should have equal opportunities, equal benefits in our society.
Dennis Tardan 06:10
I was one of the things that clay, you know, you and I have talked about on many times is that it appears to us as if the level the world has gone to a level of complexity, that requires that before in the before times, that it was the words a simple enough system that that the patriarchal system might work to get us in certain in certain places. But now the world is so complex and interdependent, that we need the combination of all thoughts, the population at all thoughts and perspectives in order to succeed. It’s a synergistic rather than a zero sum game. Does, does that resonate with your, with your experience?
Rob Okun 06:58
Yeah, so of course, and, you know, I grew up, you know, in 50s, and 60s, and was socialized, you know, to the ideas and the expectations of maleness in, in those times. And it was only my experiences, going through the, you know, primarily the anti war movement, but certainly the beginnings of the environmental movement, birthday in 1970. And the gay rights movement and the women’s movement that informed how I was identifying with my maleness. And I feel fortunate that I came of age when I did, because I hadn’t hardened my views. So that I was not suspicious of women in the women’s movement or suspicious of gay rights movement. I was just kind of a young guy trying to figure it all out, and I was open. And I think that one of the things that I, I reflected on many years later in chapter I wrote for a book called Confessions of a premature pro feminist, which was a takeoff on the premature Anti Fascist from the 30s, to people that went to fight for the, against Franco in the Spanish Civil War, who our State Department described as, you know, premature Anti Fascist, and then who they turn to, to become involved in the second world war with their leadership. But I digress. I think that one of the things that occurred to me when I thought about those days in my late teens, early 20s, was that I’d be at these anti war meetings. And they were run by the stereotypical mustachioed more macho oriented guys whose politics on the war were great, whose politics on gender was just tone deaf to everything. And as I thought about it, when I was writing, you know, 40 years later, women were making the most cogent points in these meetings. And yet, in tools, leadership positions, that wasn’t entirely the case, there were moments and people in places but by and large, it was a male dominated. And that was one of the downfalls of the new left. And of course, it was women in the New Left, who threw up their hands when they recognize just how resistant in fact, As these men’s work, men work, and that’s gave rise to the women’s movement. And I think that it’s that nexus of recognizing women’s leadership, women stepping away from the movement that they were in, in creating their own movement that gave some men pause. Some men resisted that, you know, done. And other men said, what’s that about? And I think for those of us who had even a little bit of curiosity, you know, we were the kinder, gentler sexes. And I’m sure that if I could be in touch with some of the women that I knew in my undergraduate days that I would have some, some embarrassing moments. But, but it was that recognition that there’s something going on here, that consciousness raising groups and recognizing that there’s this relationship between the personal and the political, that that was just exciting, was confusing for sure. And I certainly like a lot of men who became involved in pro feminist men’s work. Certainly, there was some trepidation. But I think they the hunger for what was going on over there. And, and I think, more than just, you know, being sort of envious of it that that camaraderie and sisterhood in the politics and everything was so sparking, but I think there was in my heart of hearts, it was this recognition that this is right. And what was happening before was wrong. And it’s hard to unseat the truth when you’ve seen it.
Dennis Tardan 11:59
Well, you talked about trust, you talked a lot you’ve talked about. Both of us had had a lot of trust issues with men. Would you talk about that clay? And I’d love to hear Rob’s Yeah,
Clay Boykin 12:13
well, in this has been my feeling. And it’s been over the past 10 years in the men’s work that I’ve done. That seems to be kind of a common theme that so many men have either gone through their dark night of the soul, or they’re, they’re coming up through a recovery program or something, and they’re looking for something a little bit more, I’ll say spiritual, but they don’t differentiate between spirituality and religion. And they said, Well, I got burned on organized religion, so I’m not going to go there. And they can speak to their spouse or partner to a certain level, but it’s only when they can connect with another man at a deep level, that there’s some things that they’re that’s that they can only learn there. But we’re raised not to trust one another. And so that for me, personally, my experience was that created this void in me. And this knowing and, and the harder I worked outwardly, the more that this hurt inwardly. And I’ve run across so many men who said, Oh, yeah, I’ve got that feeling, too. And it’s, it stems from me, in not really having a strong male role model model growing up, and finding situations where I couldn’t trust men. And so that starts at spin, but I see a whole population out there of guys that are here, there, but they’re stuck. They’re stuck in their heart, or they’re stuck, or they don’t know, they don’t have the vocabulary to, to speak or to express themselves. And they’re confused about this. And, you know, we’re festering inside, and we’re dying, or we’re killing other people as a result.
Rob Okun 14:01
Right? I think you’re you’re hitting on and we’re the conversation in this organic fashion. We started with a little bit more of this social justice, social change, political orientation towards understanding what we could do as men. And you’re bringing us back to the key important, hard work that so many men have struggled with or our struggle with or don’t have the vocabulary for. And it just reminds me of the blessing of connecting with the organization that I became deeply involved with for many years. One of the earliest men centers in North America was called Men’s Resource Center and it was based in Western Massachusetts. I like to say that I showed up in Using baseball terminology in the bottom of the first second founder, but I was I was up close from pretty much the beginning. And the community where where I live in Western Massachusetts has had a long history of integrating spiritual pursuits in social justice pursuits, that, that, that whatever tension there might have been about those areas in the 70s, and into the early 80s, began to become very integrated. So the tagline of the organization, mentor Resource Center was supporting men, challenging men’s violence. So it was in the two wings of this this vertiv piece that we were trying to create. And I know that sometimes there were people who showed up, who were taken aback, and they couldn’t quite connect with, you know, those seemingly disparate ideas. But once the the conversation happened, or the self exploration happened, and there was that aha moment, it was like, Oh, of course, I have to do the inner work. And I can’t ignore the outer work. And, you know, it’s really interesting when, when Robert Bly died, recently, there was so much emphasis on his his work, you know, particularly Iron Man, and how he was perceived as this elder in the men’s movement. And it really ignored his whole history as a political activist, very strong anti war activist. And I always felt that it was too bad that even a paragraph or two in that book that said, you know, I’m focusing in on the inner work that men need to do. But this isn’t the place that I want to talk about the outer work that men need to be engaged in. And I, I had the opportunity of meeting him in his later Later years. And we didn’t have that direct conversation. But I felt like there was a sense of like, appreciation for I know what you guys are doing, meaning the men center and magazine that I added. And I think that, that there was a lost opportunity in the 90s. And, you know, I’m sure that if one talked to Bill Moyers, who did that famous interview with Robert Bly, that there would have been Oh, yeah, I probably should have talked about this piece. So I’m glad that we’re having the chance to notice that the stuck place the hurt place, can actually be loosened and freed up by feeling that sense of purpose to take on injustice. And particularly, gender inequality is a place where when men open up to it, and don’t feel resistant to it, that light bulb does really go on,
Clay Boykin 18:27
you know, I so true. We had a gentleman named Howard tie on, and I’ve gotten to know him pretty well. And in, in our conversation, at one point, we was talking about solar and lunar, he was putting the speaking in that term, the solar male and the lunar female. And the fact that both the genders if you will have both energies within them. And I was tracking along with that just fine. And then he said, Now clay, you’re in all marine. Now tell me if this isn’t true. The lunar leads, and the solar executes. Well, Dennis saw me I kind of back. Oh, boy. But, but I thought about it. And it’s true. In all my time in the Corps, it was heart. This is where leadership is born. And yes, and it’s a combination, of course, but primarily, it’s from the heart. And we execute from the head. I can’t think of a situation where we had to, you know, go into harm’s way where someone was just leaning leading from the neck up. And so to me, it’s like, Why can’t guys understand this? That that you’re not complete, just up here that you’ve got to embrace that this is where true leadership comes from. It’s from the heart, and you need to get there and learn. There’s nothing sought. There’s nothing soft about that.
Dennis Tardan 20:08
I really like how you how you phrase that clay because I want to ask you rob, that question of why. Alright, because here we are as a culture. Here we are in 2022. All the three of us are in the fourth quarters of our lives, and what we’re doing and what we’re so so where are the places where we can have impact in order to push this conversation forth and help change the world?
Rob Okun 20:36
Yeah. Yeah. Just a little question to ask
Dennis Tardan 20:40
just a little one on so yeah, they’re just toss away little.
Rob Okun 20:46
So man’s frozen spot, that place that, that we’ve been naming that that inability to open up into, look at our interior lives and to feel the struggle and to embrace it and to be vulnerable. All these things that most men have been socialized to be resistant to? We’re at, we’re at an at an inflection point where that’s slowly shifting. And I think it’s a great opportunity. And it’s a sense of frustration that we haven’t made kind of progress that we might have. But I think you hit on something like, there will probably be some people when they hear the word compassion. Or some people identify as male though, okay, I’m not going I’m not checking that out. No, that that words have been gender. So compassion is feminine, feminine. And courage is masking. So when we think the word courage, we think of the firefighter rushing into the burning, building and coming out with the baby, we don’t necessarily think that it’s a group of guys standing around and somebody makes a sexist or racist, or homophobic joke. And rather than casting your eyes down or walking away, somebody says, Hey, man, I don’t like that. I need you to stop talking that way. That’s not cool. That’s the kind of courage. So I think we’re, we’ve been stuck because men have felt that inability to speak up. And right now, I mean, this is a it’s a great point to dig into. Because I think we are at a moment where we need our voices in the conversation. When I say our, you know, whether it’s men and you say, the fourth quarter, I say, the 7/7 inning of them and
Dennis Tardan 22:55
yeah, I’m sorry. We’ve got a Red Sox fan here. So we better make sure that Fenway is as well represented.
Rob Okun 23:04
No, I’m referred to by my grandchildren as Big Papi. David Ortiz is the Red Sox. Now Hall of Famer. Yeah. Anyway. I think that right now, there is a potential army of men, making say from no young fathers in their 30s up to guys in their seven in the seventh inning, who, if we can organize ourselves and find their voices, we can really contribute so much to every social problem that we’re dealing with, you know, from from climate crisis, no, to no democracy crisis, I mean, across the board, and it occurred to me after Kyle Rittenhouse was acquitted for murdering two people in wanting another FF in Kenosha, Wisconsin at the protests about Jacob likes being paralyzed that he at 18 became suddenly a star among the particular perspective from the right wing. And I’m thinking to myself, are there fathers and teachers and uncles and mentors who want to raise sons, regardless of what you think of the the jury verdict or any of that? Do we want to have our 18 717 year old at the time? Do we want them thinking that the way to express power and courage and manhood is to go with a No What was it a key? Yeah. Yeah. Whatever he had an assault rifle. Is that what we want? Because if, if we stay silent, then that is the message that millions of males are expressing through our through our silence. And I say even that makes us in collusion with that we’re called, you know,
Rob Okun 25:34
it’s it’s just time that we use things like that as an example, to say no, no more.
Clay Boykin 25:41
I agree. This is what, so excited me, Rob, when you sent me the magazines, voicemail. And I started just quickly thumbing through and got tremendously excited because this is speaking to the younger men. And this has been an area where in search, the new compassionate male has really, it’s a wide audience, but it tends to be towards this, you know, entering into the second half of life. And so this has been a real,
Dennis Tardan 26:17
yeah. Entering and it is, and so are you finding, Rob, are you finding that, that burning in the 20 year olds, and the young and the young kids that are coming, I see it on the political front, but I’m not sure I see it in the men, I’m not experiencing it. Yet as much in in the, in the pro feminist movement?
Rob Okun 26:42
Yeah, I want to see two things, and then get into that a little bit more. One is that we haven’t done as good a job at doing outreach to a more diverse group of men. And that, just as the women’s movement started with, mostly, you know, middle class, white women, there became a critique of the narrowness of this and how it wasn’t expressing the needs of all women. And, and, and they took that on and over time diversified that movement, so that it is very racially diverse and sexual orientation diverse. And it’s been slower, but inside of the movement, that I use term, pro feminist or anti sexist, that it’s been important that there are more men of color involved and in leadership positions, and also to recognize that it’s, it’s the time where, for those of us who’ve been doing this work for a long time, and are in this fourth quarter, seventh inning, that we look to younger men. So one of the issues the last issue, I think, that I sent to play, the cover story is about an organization called next gen men. Yes, and, and your name, you know, says it all. And I’ve gotten to know the executive director and a few people on their staff over the last couple of years. And they are exactly taking on for 2022 and beyond the issues that men’s Resource Center was taking on in the 80s and 90s. Just to say, the founding executive director of the men’s Resource Center, work with closely My dear friend, Steve black. And when he first read about next gen man, he said, Oh, this reminds us of class in the early days. Wow. So that forecasting is going on. And they’re working more closely with voicemail. And I think, even though they’re in Canada, where there’s been a lot of great intersects as Pro feminist men’s work going on. So it’s happening and those of us who have a sphere of influence to make to bridge those divides and to bring more people in, whether it’s getting clergy to talk about it from the pulpit, or work with mentors in schools, to coaches to really invite because, you know, at the high end pointing up the street, the high school here, there’s a women’s rights club that’s been going on for 20 years, and we’re not at the place where it’s called the gender rights. Club. But every year, if there’s, you know, 2530 women, there’s five or six or seven guys. And that gives me hope when I see that that’s what’s happening
Clay Boykin 30:11
well and add on the voicemail magazine as kind of the the flag for some of this work. And it’s voice mail ma L E, which I love it. The point I wanted to make is this is this is not just a US magazine. This has this, it looks to me like it’s taking in, in speaking to more than just the young men in the US. Am I correct?
Rob Okun 30:41
Yes. And I think one of the most exciting things that has happened is starting about 20 years ago, maybe a little bit more. Those of us who have been involved in North America became aware that this work is actually global. Yeah. There was a US one guy who is actually originally from Texas, who was living in Brazil, and colleague working in South Africa, they had the perspective that was not North America, narrow perspective, they had a more global perspective. And they started about 20, some years ago and organization called Men engage all one word men engaged with the person he capitalized. And that’s grown over the years, the global MenEngage. Alliance, to be in I want to say about 85 countries, and hundreds and hundreds of organizational and individual members on five continents. And as soon as we end, the men’s Resource Center, and as I was taking voicemail, from organizational newsletter, and elevating it to magazine, it became clear that, oh, we have to talk about what’s going on globally. And some of the most exciting work was going on in South Africa, in India, and, you know, Europe was similar. And Scandinavia, I mean, Africa itself, there’s probably 17 countries on the African continent that happened engaged chapters. So this is clearly a global movement. And it’s all from from the get go, it has acknowledged as voice noun and and resource and it did the leadership of women and the wanting to endorse and back the voices of women. So this is a movement to invite younger men in into working for gender equality, and for their own enlightenment and their own freeing of themselves. But it has been an inclusive movement that has been diverse across the board in race and class and gender. I think I read there were over 900 organizations.
Rob Okun 33:43
Yeah. My keeping up with my own information.
Dennis Tardan 33:47
You know, Rob, what I love about this is how much hope this gives me because the when when the embers are just started, when we were just seeing a little bit to read before the fire really catches and when we’re doing, you know, when Lin Manuel Miranda wrote, wrote the Hamilton and he talked to and one of the songs is being in the room where it happened. This feels like we are in the room where it happened, that there is such a shift in consciousness that is happening right now. That is, that is actually what is emerging is something so much more integrated, and so much more whole than where we have been before.
Rob Okun 34:34
It’s true. It’s true that the first symposium of the MenEngage Alliance was in 2009, in Rio de Janeiro. And there are about 450 people from around the world. Few years later in 2014 was the next symposium and that happened to New Delhi, India, and that had 1200 delegates. And it was the most thrilling thing, the workshops, the plenaries, everything was so sparkling. But there was a big courtyard, it was November and the temperature is very late spring, like around 70s. And at lunch for in the breaks, people be outside and we had booths with our information. But it was like United Nations of people all rowing in the same direction. And it looked like the united nations of the world. And, you know, there were many things that I learned in the plenaries, and all of the workshops, but my heart lived in that courtyard for the breaks and for lunch and, and getting together with Julio from Mozambique. And everyone. I mean, it you can see the excitement is still there all these years later. We were all set we as members to go to Kigali and Wanda, last November, November of last year, for the the new symposium. But of course, we intervene and talk about making lemonade out of lemons, instead of a five day experience with finite, maybe it would have been up to 2000 people. It was a series of plenaries and workshops that went on from November to June and allow people from around the world and you can go to the menengage.org to their website and just type in Kigali MenEngage. Third, world symposium, and you can dip into workshops on every topic under the sun in some some outer space, probably.
Clay Boykin 37:18
I’ll be sure to put that URL and because it’s so important.
Dennis Tardan 37:23
It is and it’s so so exciting, Rob to to to see when you look at where you are today, and what are the things that you’re investing in the things that you’re curious about what’s what’s burning on, on, on the work that you’re doing.
Clay Boykin 37:42
I touched on it, it’s it’s that next gen men, it’s it’s literally those people from you know, their 20s 30s 40s, who were stepping into this work, and we’re ready to take on this work. I think that that’s, that’s, that’s one piece. And the other is figuring out how to loosen and open the hearts of men who have so much to offer in terms of mentoring, and leadership and expressing that dialogue that we’re hearing out there about, man. No, there’s another voice. Sadly, too many of the examples of masculine behaviors, quote, unquote, are so negative, I’m not a fan of the term, toxic masculinity, but I get it, I understand it in a kind of freeze frames, you know, we’re not all, you know, in a, in a moment, someone could be expressing toxic behavior, but that’s not their full identity, yet, examples that we get that we’re bombarded with every day. I mean, you know, there’s, there’s a madman operating in Moscow, who’s isolated who, who is an example, you know, until a couple until a year ago, I mean, you know, who we could point to our own country and speak about that example. But, I mean, it’s still influential, but he’s hopefully going to get more isolated, become old news. But all of these examples of the worst have stuck, stubborn, right? Fearful, tight, all of those examples, if we sit back and don’t challenge them, and that becomes that’s why that term, you know, you’re introducing, you know, a great new term and may you know, take route and become more powerful and more in the daily pylons. Then when toxic compassion, compassion wins every time.
Dennis Tardan 40:11
And it is a power it’s not a win. It’s not doesn’t come. I love the way you frame that earlier where you were talking about compassion, being identified with the female with it with a woman rather than compassion and courage yet yet what what you’ve said clay so often and we’ve had is that is the courage if there is such courage in compassion,
Clay Boykin 40:38
well Brene Brown talks about courage and the root being curb which means heart. And I keep going back to my time in college as a as a cadet at a&m and as a freshman, they marched us over to the memorial students center and say, you memorize this Bible verse. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friend, John 1530. Yeah, that’s compassion. And there’s nothing soft about that when a man lays down his life for another man. That’s, that’s the supreme act of compassion. So these ideas that compassion is something soft, is really not it’s really off base. It’s much greater than that. I
Rob Okun 41:32
know, we’ve talked about some people describe the crisis of masculinity, and we’re not hearing about the good news about the passionate man, and then we’re wanting to change. But if we want to see men change, and if we want to have a culture that’s really inviting that change, then we have to be honest and open to identify situations where the danger is so acute, and the lack of identification of what’s going on. Is so under stated, What do I mean by that? The January six insurrection? Okay, it was this was an information from my friend and colleague Jackson Capps was 93%. White, but 86%. Male. And have you heard any discourse if you’ve heard any commentary? Have you heard any attention being given to the gender of insurrectionists? I’ve written commentaries over the years since Columbine, about how maddening it is that we don’t say the shooters gender identity, name, a spot name a spot 99% of the mass shootings, school shootings, theaters, shootings are done by men, and that we, at our peril. Think of this as a mental health issue, which of course, it is, on some level, even gender even with this, this high school student and his out of control parents in Michigan, we don’t speak the truth. And how are we going to change if we don’t identify what the problem is? So to me, if we want to take back the precious democracy, that’s an arrow right now, one of the places is to identify who the insurrection is primarily. And I would say that, of course, everybody knows that they’re mad. I mean, you say that there was a mass shooting, and everybody’s in their mind the image is, is not of a of a woman. And of course, if it is a woman, then that’s what the woman charged with mass shooting, but we don’t identify the perpetrator. We take it for granted. So part of the work of getting to a place where we can all embrace the new compassionate male is by looking at the hurt, twisted, destructive, troubled, dangerous, existing expression of so called man may think that that’s a piece that In terms of what we need to be looking at right now, as a culture as a society as a political moment, is really honing in on that disparity.
Clay Boykin 45:15
So well put, thank you for that.
Rob Okun 45:19
I, I, one of the things I did in my days at the men’s Resource Center, we had a range of programs from bunch of different kinds of support groups for men, young men of color leadership program and a women support group for women whose partners or ex partners were in a batter’s program, and we ran a certified batterers intervention program. So it was very broad range and published voicemail, we had a bunch of things going on with us as women, the battered general support gay men support group, and we’ve been neglected or abused in some way growing up. But for many years, Wednesday nights, I would lead a group. And at a later point, we decided who should have co leadership of a woman and a man running, better intervention. But one of our CO leaders coined this term. Steep Jefferson, who’s now not here on the planet, wonderful man. He coined the term compassionate confrontation. So imagine you’re sitting in a room where men either have been ordered by the court, go through this 24 week, 20 week program, two hours every week for Spouse said, we either deal with this I’m out of here, for a clergy member or therapist, so there was a mix of Courtney and dated and pushed in, encouraged. And they sit there and you could watch over the course of the groups, when when they started would be such resistance and there would be no, not unwilling to own any of the behaviors that got them there. And the beauty of the program was that people came in in a staggered way. So somebody who’s in week two, sitting in a room with someone that week nine and someone that week 16. And the the bats would hone in the group leader. Do you are just completely bullshitting yourself? You are completely, you know, not acknowledging the reality? She just fell? No. I just know if if she hadn’t had done that, then I wouldn’t have. And they broke it down. But Steve, when he coined this term, it’s like, we know that you’re not, you know, a battered 24/7. And so I’m going to feel the compassion for whatever it was in your life circumstances, however, you were brought up whatever happened to you, whatever bad things, I’m going to feel compassion for you. And simultaneous truth, I’m going to confront your abusive behavior. So going back to that model of how we ran the organization, supporting men challenging men’s violence, we could hold both parts of them. Yes. And just as a historical note, in the 80s, and 90s. That was a radical notion within the batters intervention world. And as time went on, the rest of that movement, caught up with that vision, just because it became the truth that compassion is urging exactly like you said.
Dennis Tardan 49:14
bra that is that is so that is so profound, because today we to be able to hold two thoughts at the same time and to be able to have because I need to not only have compassion for what I see out in the world, but if I cannot have compassion for myself for my mistakes for what I’m doing, if I’m not able to express it to myself, also, I’m not going to be able to be as effective in the outer world
Rob Okun 49:42
that fires burning out in the world and among the ones that we have to take care of is still a fire of of hate that In our own hearts,
Dennis Tardan 50:01
yes, yes, I have that. When you look at your grandchildren, what what do you see? How do you see in their consciousnesses as they were growing up from when you were, you were that age and you you’re getting a chance to do what does that do?
Rob Okun 50:21
I mean, that’s another place where I feel a lot of hope, or a girl and for two sets of siblings, for a little boy and two boys, and you’re between almost nine and down to four, particularly the older ones, nine and seven. They have a natural sensitivity. You know, one of them is copying out poems that he likes. One of them is knitting one day and going to Taekwondo, the next. I mean, they’re they’re integrators. And I think, and their, their parents are raising them to pull both places. Now the culture, no question, the culture is going to still try to push them into those traditional boxes. But I think a lot of younger parents who are it’s not even that they’re consciously fighting back. They’re just, this is how I want to raise my kids. And the whole both.
Dennis Tardan 51:32
And, you know, I don’t think Rob that the number has to be 50%. To get to the tipping point, there’s something about consciousness that takes a much smaller number, to get to a tipping point to to infect the entire society. Isn’t this wonderful clay, you just feel I my emotions, my heart is opening so much to being around you, Rob,
Clay Boykin 52:02
I want to say this. And I’m saying this with all my heart that last year with this podcast, we talked to great men, great women. And as I said earlier, they tend to be towards a little bit older. This year, I really want to bring in the youth, I really want to hear the voices of the young people. Because the audience needs to hear it and I want to want them to have this plan.
Dennis Tardan 52:35
I need to hear it and I need to hear it. That’s why we are in search of Rob, we’re in searches because we’re exploring without and within us. Because there’s so many places that I have conscious and unconscious biases that I haven’t even worked through, that I need to continue to work through. And both of us are exploring. That’s why we are in search of and deliberately made it in that vein.
Rob Okun 53:00
Yeah, they’re out there. And no, not at this moment. But I’m happy to give you some suggestions of and to invite. And I don’t know do you have women on this?
Clay Boykin 53:12
Absolutely.
Dennis Tardan 53:14
Demographic clay crazies, don’t we demographic Yeah,
Clay Boykin 53:17
that listen to the podcast and visit the website, consistently between 48 to 52% of the followers of the people who go to visit the website or listen to the podcast, or women. There’s been weeks that that where it’s more women than men on the podcast, or listening to the podcast, they want
Dennis Tardan 53:39
to believe it’s possible. They want to believe that we can actually grow and change.
Clay Boykin 53:45
And the voices of the women who’ve been on the podcast have been incredible. Please have been incredible.
Rob Okun 53:55
Great. Okay,
Dennis Tardan 53:57
so we would love we would love to not only that, but we want to continue to connect with you, Rob and your guidance and helping us to find the voices. Because the voices that are around you are the voices we want to amplify.
Rob Okun 54:15
Well, that’s wonderful. And it just occurred to me that in addition to listeners or viewers on YouTube, of the podcast, might want to check voice mail magazine.org and look at it online and just remember if you don’t spell mail ma le, we won’t get too far. And if you don’t, and if you don’t put in magazine, you’re going to find a wonderful men’s soccer pellet group. Some great singing I always thought they should do a benefit concert for us but they’re called voicemail but you have to write voice mail ma le magazine.org. But for those who are Old school or if we just like the tactile experience, I’d be happy to have us send a physical copy of the magazine to anybody. And they can have that as a month.
Dennis Tardan 55:17
Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to learn with and from you. And to have this gracious moment this is very holy. For me, this gives me a great deal of inspiration and hope and play. I know you.
Clay Boykin 55:36
Yeah. I’m almost speechless. I’m so excited.
Dennis Tardan 55:41
I’m not bad at something my boy can being speechless is really
Clay 55:47
That’s a mouthful, right?
Rob Okun 55:51
I am understanding from what you’re both saying that we reached the end of our time, and it’s literally flown by because you have both invited the conversation and woven it together. That just really allowed me to feel that sense of hope that, you know, men aren’t just stuck, that men are opening up. I I used to say that when I was giving a talk or something that if the lights went out and there was no pilot power, you know, I would just have three words to say. Believe in men believe in our capacity to grow, believe in our capacity to change and to feel a sense of hope, fullness. Despite how many opportunities there might be to feel hopeless, because it’s happening. It’s happening and we’re only going to grow and it’s our time to speak up and to speak out.
Dennis Tardan 57:07
Clay thank you so much for for inviting me and Rob Oaken. Thank you so much for joining me and it is certainly for me not going to be the last time I’m going to be joining you and we are going to be doing it but anyway, thank you so much. And I think all the listeners thanks everyone for supporting the podcast supporting the vid cast and clay and I will get a chance all the information is on the link. And we will see all of you in search of the new compassionate mail next time.
Clay Boykin 57:49
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Richard Tarnas is the founding director of the graduate program in Philosophy, Cosmology, and Consciousness at the California Institute of Integral Studies(CIIS) in San Francisco, where he currently teaches. Born in 1950 in Geneva, Switzerland, of American parents, he grew up in Michigan, where he received a classical Jesuit education. In 1968 he entered Harvard, where he studiedWestern intellectual and cultural history and depth psychology, graduating with an A.B. cum laude in 1972. For ten years he lived and worked at Esalen Institute in Big Sur, California, studying with Stanislav Grof, Joseph Campbell, Gregory Bateson, Huston Smith, and James Hillman, later serving as Esalen’s director of programs and education. He received his Ph.D. from Saybrook Institute in 1976 with a dissertation on LSD psychotherapy, psychoanalysis, and spiritual transformation. 
From 1980 to 1990, he wrote The Passion of the Western Mind, a narrative history of Western thought from the ancient Greek to the postmodern which became a best seller and continues to be a widely used text in universities throughout the world. In 2006, he published Cosmos and Psyche:
